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Southern entrapment?

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yorkie

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I could go on, but it seems the verdict has already been reached. The Gatwick Express is bad and all the staff are liars, cheats and charlatans :rolleyes:
I am of the view that the blame for the poor actions of some staff is down to management.

And, to be fair, of the dozen or so people on this forum who I am aware have used Southern tickets on Gatwick Express operated by Southern, back when on-board inspections took place as a matter of routine, only a minority of them were charged.
. I had no idea that price was available on GX and always go straight to the "Southern only" fares!
But why not go for the Southern Only fares? The definition is in NRCoC Condition 10, it is restricted to the trains of a particular Company. The Company is Southern. There is no Gatwick Express Company currently operating trains, it is true that some Southern staff (including managers) pretend that there is, but when asked by the DfT they "agree that there is no separate Gatwick Express franchise or Train Operating Company" (source) the old company is still in the name of National Express.

It is unlikely that you would be challenged on such a ticket, but if you are, simply take a copy of the Southern route map. "Other operator" services are shown in a thin black line. Gatwick Express route services are clearly shown in a thick red line as the "Gatwick Express route".

It's a brand name, the service is still operated by Southern. Their website admits this, "(c) Gatwick Express is operated by Southern". The NRT also correctly shows the operator is SN (Southern).

Greater Anglia only tickets are valid on Stansted Express, there's no difference in status. Both Stansted Express and Gatwick Express are brand names.
 
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R

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Here we go again.....
To London
Group Save tickets are valid on the 'Gatwick Express Branded Trains' at any time.
Group Save tickets on Southern/FCC services are valid from 09:23 on Southern, 09:32 for FCC.

For 3 or 4 people travelling together on 'Gatwick Express Branded Trains' the fare is £37.80 Anytime Single or £66.40 for an Anytime Return.

Southern Only before 09:23 per person to Victoria - £13.50 Anytime Single

FCC Only/Not Underground before 09:32 to London Bridge/Blackfriars/City Thameslink/Farringdon/St Pancakes before 09:32 - £9.90 per person.

Also Senior Railcard is valid on 'Gatwick Express Branded Trains' at anytime making a Anytime Single with a Senior Railcard £12.50

Ta da :roll:
 

yorkie

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Thanks for the info, though it raises some more questions.

If I look up an Anytime Day return from Gatwick to London routed Southern Only, with GroupSave, what is there to state that this ticket is not valid until 0923, when the validity of the ticket will say "On date shown" the type is "Anytime"?

I can't see any information in the public domain states that an Anytime Day ticket with such a route description would not be valid at anytime, when an Anytime ticket routed Any Permitted is valid at anytime.

As for the Senior Railcard, in order to be inconsistent and non-simple ;))), it was my understanding that tickets bought with such a discount card for journeys wholly in the NSE area, were not valid until the appropriate off peak ticket becomes valid. Is there an easement that allows this Railcard to be used before off peak times on this route?

Gatwick - London pricing is even more complicated than I thought!
 
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It's worse than that....

Standard 'Group Save' products are not valid on the Gatwick Express (this also applies to Stansted Express brand as well!)

So a Group Save 3 or 4 Gatwick Airport to Stansed Airport routed Any Permitted would not be valid on Gatwick Express to Victoria or Stansted Express to Stansted!

Validity of Group Save products is covered in 'The Manual'

The Gatwick Express 'group ticket' is different and is only valid on a particular service, route and destination.
 
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yorkie

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Hmm, it gets more complex with each post!

If anyone gets the opportunity to scan in one of these special tickets I'd be interested, and anything in the public domain (which doesn't include The Manual) would also be useful.

According to Avantix Traveller, the cost of an Anytime Single from Gatwick to London Victoria is £37.80, which is the same price you quote, but there's nothing to say it's a special or different ticket, and "no restriction applies" apparently.

But for the same origin & destination, there is an Anytime Day Single for £27.00 routed Southern Only, but also apparently "no restriction applies" and there's nothing to say it's not valid until 0923 and nothing appears to differentiate these products from each other (except for the route).

It also makes a bit of a mockery of the claim that an Anytime ticket is "valid at any time" and that the name of the ticket "describes when you can travel", it doesn't make sense that two tickets of the same origin & destination, both called Anytime, have differing validities when the only difference is the routeing and there's nothing visible to the passenger to suggest there may be a restriction that I can see.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....But why not go for the Southern Only fares? The definition is in NRCoC Condition 10, it is restricted to the trains of a particular Company. The Company is Southern. There is no Gatwick Express Company currently operating trains, it is true that some Southern staff (including managers) pretend that there is, but when asked by the DfT they "agree that there is no separate Gatwick Express franchise or Train Operating Company" (source) the old company is still in the name of National Express.....

I'm surprised you have brought up that piece of evidence, given that it has been noted on a previous thread that you think the DfT and in particular Peter Lepper (yes, that's right, the author of your "source") are liars. Peter Lepper sent a mail to a member of this forum (which was shown on the forum) stating that in relation to condition 10, Gatwick Express is a separate train Company, something he does not say in the "source" you provide.

The train companies (as defined in the NRCoC) are listed in the NRCoC (Updated May 2012) which is available via the NRES website.

....Greater Anglia only tickets are valid on Stansted Express, there's no difference in status. Both Stansted Express and Gatwick Express are brand names.

I'm not sure how much longer you can say that. AFAIAA, the operator listed on Stansted Express services in Fastis, NRES and online retailers is Greater Anglia, not Stansted Express. The operator noted on Gatwick Express services, that start at Gatwick or Victoria, is Gatwick Express.

....If anyone gets the opportunity to scan in one of these special tickets I'd be interested, and anything in the public domain (which doesn't include The Manual) would also be useful....

If you look at the Groupsave entry on NRES, it does note that Groupsave is not valid on Stansted Express services, this may be necessary given the note above about Greater Anglia.

....According to Avantix Traveller, the cost of an Anytime Single from Gatwick to London Victoria is £37.80, which is the same price you quote, but there's nothing to say it's a special or different ticket, and "no restriction applies" apparently.

But for the same origin & destination, there is an Anytime Day Single for £27.00 routed Southern Only, but also apparently "no restriction applies" and there's nothing to say it's not valid until 0923 and nothing appears to differentiate these products from each other (except for the route).

It also makes a bit of a mockery of the claim that an Anytime ticket is "valid at any time" and that the name of the ticket "describes when you can travel", it doesn't make sense that two tickets of the same origin & destination, both called Anytime, have differing validities when the only difference is the routeing and there's nothing visible to the passenger to suggest there may be a restriction that I can see.

In the case of the Groupsave discounts (not to be confused with the Groupsave fares) it is the discount which has the restriction, not the ticket, in much the same way as Network, Senior and 16-25 Railcard discounts. If a ticket has no time restrictions, Groupsave is valid after 0930 (0915 from Bedford).

There is, however, a Gatwick Express Group Ticket (44S/44R, "four 4 two") which is routed 'Any Permitted'. It is valid with three or four travellers, one of whom must be an adult (so, not unlike Groupsave). There is also a five person version (43S/43R). These tickets are not in the fares finder in the Manual, but they are in the "TOC specific group product" section.
 
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yorkie

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I'm surprised you have brought up that piece of evidence, given that it has been noted on a previous thread that you think the DfT and in particular Peter Lepper (yes, that's right, the author of your "source") are liars. Peter Lepper sent a mail to a member of this forum (which was shown on the forum) stating that in relation to condition 10, Gatwick Express is a separate train Company, something he does not say in the "source" you provide.
If Peter Lepper has contradicted himself, I suggest you take up the matter with him, but I am going by what's written in the letter quoted above as being correct. The question did state it was for the purposes of NRCoC Condition 10. Companies cannot be invented for the purpose of a particular Condition.
The train companies (as defined in the NRCoC) are listed in the NRCoC (Updated May 2012) which is available via the NRES website.



I'm not sure how much longer you can say that. AFAIAA, the operator listed on Stansted Express services in Fastis, NRES and online retailers is Greater Anglia, not Stansted Express. The operator noted on Gatwick Express services, that start at Gatwick or Victoria, is Gatwick Express.
There is nothing different about the two services in the respect that neither Gatwick nor Stansted Express is an Operator. In both cases, it's a brand name of their respective Train Operating Companies.

If you look at the Groupsave entry on NRES, it does note that Groupsave is not valid on Stansted Express services, this may be necessary given the note above about Greater Anglia.

In the case of the Groupsave discounts (not to be confused with the Groupsave fares) it is the discount which has the restriction, not the ticket, in much the same way as Network, Senior and 16-25 Railcard discounts. If a ticket has no time restrictions, Groupsave is valid after 0930 (0915 from Bedford).

There is, however, a Gatwick Express Group Ticket (44S/44R, "four 4 two") which is routed 'Any Permitted'. It is valid with three or four travellers, one of whom must be an adult (so, not unlike Groupsave). There is also a five person version (43S/43R). These tickets are not in the fares finder in the Manual, but they are in the "TOC specific group product" section.
How complicated. Again I'd like to see how they actually print out!

I think that Passenger Focus, Which? et al are all barking up the wrong tree when it comes to complaining about how complex ticketing is, as their examples are where passengers don't adhere to T&Cs that are made clear to them. They would do much better to look at the really confusing examples such as Gatwick - London ticketing and GroupSave restrictions.
 

LE Greys

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I think that Passenger Focus, Which? et al are all barking up the wrong tree when it comes to complaining about how complex ticketing is, as their examples are where passengers don't adhere to T&Cs that are made clear to them. They would do much better to look at the really confusing examples such as Gatwick - London ticketing and GroupSave restrictions.

Agreed!
 

AlterEgo

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Anyone know if they are required to be impartial? If they are not, then they should make it absolutely clear.

My interpretation of the TSA and Retail Standards Guide is that those "assistants" are not required to be impartial, as they are not actually selling the ticket.

I would agree with the sentiment that they ought to be impartial, though.
 

hairyhandedfool

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If Peter Lepper has contradicted himself, I suggest you take up the matter with him, but I am going by what's written in the letter quoted above as being correct. The question did state it was for the purposes of NRCoC Condition 10. Companies cannot be invented for the purpose of a particular Condition....

I have no problem with anything Peter Lepper has written, both letters, in my opinion, are 100% correct. I have nothing to take up with him or the DfT. In contrast you seem to ignore one of the letters claiming previously that it is wrong and, as I noted, that he and the DfT are liars. If either of us has a problem, it is you.

Imagine I buy a car and it is blue, you ask me if blue is my favourite colour and I reply "I like blue". If someone else, later, saw the car and asked me if it is in my favourite colour and I reply "No, my favourite colour is red", have I lied? no, at no point have I said my favourite colour is blue. So you have to ask yourself, did I answer your question?

At what point does Peter Lepper refer to National Rail Conditions of Carriage or Train Companies? He doesn't in your 'source'. But in the later letter he is quite specific, refering to the NRCoC and Condition 10, and adds in the term Train Companies to boot.

So, did Peter Lepper answer the question in the first letter? Or are you so happy to believe he answered the question that you haven't actually read the answer?

....There is nothing different about the two services in the respect that neither Gatwick nor Stansted Express is an Operator. In both cases, it's a brand name of their respective Train Operating Companies....

There is a difference, but either you can't see it, or you choose not to, I'm not sure which atm.

....How complicated. Again I'd like to see how they actually print out!....

I've not printed one so I can't say how they print out, but NRES says they are valid on Southern services (presumably because they are noted in the fares database as 'Any Permitted').

....I think that Passenger Focus, Which? et al are all barking up the wrong tree when it comes to complaining about how complex ticketing is, as their examples are where passengers don't adhere to T&Cs that are made clear to them. They would do much better to look at the really confusing examples such as Gatwick - London ticketing and GroupSave restrictions.

I can atleast agree with you on that. Passenger Focus and their ilk will only succeed in reducing passenger options for tickets, not making them better.
 

Eros

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Having been a Driver Manager with Southern until 3 years ago I believe it's part of the franchise that they stay separate. Crazy way of running a railway!!
 
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