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Southern On Board Supervisor does not know ticketing rules.

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Tonight the On Board Spurevisor on the 20:21 Victoria to East Grinstead train decided, against all logic, and against the recently circulated fares advice that a point to point season ticket from Purley Oaks to London Terminals was only valid to Purley Oaks. He thus charged me an East Croydon to Sanderstead fare, though he did allow me the gold card reduction.

Sanderstead’s ticket Office was still open and I got my £2.10 back from an exasperated ticket clerk. I am trying to complain to Southern, though the form does not seem to like iPads.

I firmly but not I think rudely told him he was wrong; he was insistent he was right even when I suggested that, as the ticket goes through the barriers at Sanderstead, it was valid there.
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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It seem doesn't make a great deal of sense (but for the fact that Purley Oaks and Sanderstead are so close to one another), and I can't find an easement in the public list of easements, however some reputable journey planners are validating travel via Sanderstead (even doubling back via East Croydon) for a through Purley Oaks-London Terminals ticket.

Presumably there must be data in the background that is validating this route - so I do believe this is valid and hence you were in the right. Even if you were 'off route', you were only 'off route' from South Croydon onwards - and so the OBS should only have charged from thence onwards, if he was trying to be technically correct (although I appreciate that the rules are likely that the new ticket is from the last 'on route' station the train calls at).

Obviously it's very disappointing that the OBS charged you that additional fare incorrectly, however it's reassuring that you were refunded straight away.

If your complaint from Southern does not result in an apology as well as an assurance that all staff will be suitably briefed, I would suggest you might want to consider taking it to the Rail Ombudsman. However, we're not at that stage yet: let's see what Southern say.
 
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The attached is an easement I was handed by the Sanderstead ticket clerk. It’s dated 2007. Incidentally the Purley Oaks ticket works the barriers at Sanderstead which is a pretty big clue for me. There are no barriers at Purley Oaks.
 

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etr221

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Many years ago, in the days of pre-printed tickets, tickets were from 'Purley Oaks or Sanderstead' - even for destinations south of them. Whether (or when) there has been a formal change, I've no idea.
 

yorkie

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There are loads of easements for Season ticket holders in this area.

GTR are a rotten company who do not provide decent training for their staff, so it's no surprise they incorrectly charge customers.
 

furlong

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I can't find an easement in the public list of easements

It's in the list of interavailable stations. (Not considered anything to do with the routeing guide, but additional concessions granted by the industry.)
 

JB_B

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Any idea why GTR don't show publish their inter-available stations on their website(s) ?
 

Hadders

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Or just issue all the seasons concerned from the most distant station and as "Also Available At"?

You'd think they make these things complex on purpose.

The rail industry tries to make things simple but ends up making it more complicated. No doubt they'll try to simplify it further by removing the easement.
 

Haywain

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when I suggested that, as the ticket goes through the barriers at Sanderstead, it was valid there.
I don't think that ticket acceptance by barriers should ever be relied upon as conclusive proof of validity.
 
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Thanks. I can’t imagine the full list of Southern stations south of Purley Oaks and Sanderstead is published widely as doing so would mean no one would ever buy anything other than a Purley Oaks to London Terminals season as opposed to the more expensive ones from stations further south.
 

Bletchleyite

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Thanks. I can’t imagine the full list of Southern stations south of Purley Oaks and Sanderstead is published widely as doing so would mean no one would ever buy anything other than a Purley Oaks to London Terminals season as opposed to the more expensive ones from stations further south.

If they don't want it to be used by everyone, it shouldn't be an easement.

If it's an easement, it should be widely published including written on the ticket itself as an AAA type ticket, and all relevant tickets be the same price.

I have no time at all for hidden obfuscations only useful to those in the know.
 

JB_B

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Thanks. I can’t imagine the full list of Southern stations south of Purley Oaks and Sanderstead is published widely as doing so would mean no one would ever buy anything other than a Purley Oaks to London Terminals season as opposed to the more expensive ones from stations further south.

The inter-availability means a Purley Oaks to London Terminals season is also available to / from

"Chipstead, Coulsdon South, Coulsdon Town, Kingswood, Purley Oaks [sic - presumably Purley], Reedham (London), Riddlesdown,
Sanderstead, Tadworth, Tattenham Corner, Upper Warlingham or Woodmansterne."

How does that allow you to pay a lower fare?
 

Quakkerillo

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The season fare is the same for all the way to Tattenham Corner, as it is to Purley Oaks.

Also, I don't see it on the list, but I was sure that Upper Warlingham tickets are equal to tickets to Whyteleafe (South). Is/was this actually the case?
And also, why does it go down south to Upper Warlingham but not to Kenley / Whyteleafe stns with this set of stations?
 
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He’s at it again and charged my partner. Both staff members at Sanderstead were clear that the OBS was wrong. Complained on the phone to Southern. The person talked about tickets to Bristol! He did not know the rules and did not appear to know the Southern system.

National rail enquiries were no more knowledgeable and claim that the two stations are not subject of an easement. Is there any way to be absolutely certain?
 

robbeech

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It’s on the list linked to above. I’d consider a combination of that, the staff at the station, and the replies from people in this thread who have more knowledge than a bunch of these guards out together as the certainty required. Maybe you should show a copy of that document to them. I trust a refund was made for your partner.
 

sheff1

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What can be any more certain than the document provided by the staff at Sanderstead ?

I would certainly not be giving the onboard ignoramus any money.
 

gray1404

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Did the ticket office refund the ticket your partner had to buy as well? I think you both need to send two separate complaints to GTR Customer Service by email, so there is a record of it. If you need a ticket refunding then ask for this in your complaint. If their reply is not satisfactory, or they fail to understand your complaint, then you can take it to the new RO service (Rail Ombudsman).
 
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No refund as she did not actually get a ticket from him as she did not have time and had had to pay by contactless. I have suggested she make a complaint like me and will make sure it’s done tonight.
 

gray1404

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I don't understand how did she have to pay by contactless if she was on the train already with a season ticket? Are you saying the OBS look a contactless payment from her but failed to give her a ticket?
 

gray1404

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I am still confused as to why your partner used contactless, but didn't receive a ticket, but had her season ticket.
 

tsr

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It seems this easement is used by more people than I thought. I have dealt with many revenue activities on both the routes via Purley and the affected stretch of the East Grinstead lines, and very very rarely have I actually come across anyone using this easement myself.

The issue is that it flies in the face of how point-to-point (ie. non-zonal) tickets are generally meant to work, and even works against the legislation which was originally designed to counter people using point-to-point tickets further than their validity. Take for example, the bit in the Railways Clauses Consolidation Act 1845, Section 103, which states:
"... if any person knowingly and wilfully refuse or neglect, on arriving at the point to which he has paid his fare, to quit such carriage, every such person shall for every such offence forfeit a sum not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale."
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/8-9/20/section/103

You can't claim that a ticket from London to Purley Oaks being additionally valid to Chipstead - invisibly! - is something which helps that cause.

Quite how railway employees are meant to determine if somebody has actually done something wrong, when it's not even possible to immediately tell whether you have actually paid a fare to travel to that point - or another, or both - is something which needs to improved upon. There are several of these rules around the Southern operating area, and not all of them are to be found in a universally accessible format or in regular briefings. Staff who have drawn a short straw with training (or passengers who are at all interested in these matters) have to do things like rely on word-of-mouth, printouts from ticket offices etc.

Funnily enough, there was actually a briefing about the subject of this thread early in December, but the fact is that it was still buried in an email attachment in the list of all the other emails, with the relevant information being several pages into it, and not accessible on the tablets which are used for ticket sales. Ticket offices are simply more likely to know on the grounds that they are local, and that literally is the main focus of their job - even an OBS, who is mainly there for customer service, has other things on their mind and will also constantly switch between areas of the country.

(Given the local state of affairs with regards local ticketless travel, I wouldn't be at all surprised if most people outside these forums who end up buying tickets to the "wrong" stations think they're being clever by short-faring, and actually end up paying just the same price as if they'd got a ticket another couple of stops to their actual destination. But there we go.)
 

maniacmartin

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Purley Oaks and Sanderstead are within walking distance of each other. Purley Oaks even has a live departure board for the platforms at Sanderstead, and I would guess that most locals use them interchangeably. Interesting though, there is no official walking route 'Fixed Link' between the two stations which journey planners can use - not that it matters as there is a Fixed Link from Whyteleafe to Upper Warlingham further down the lines.

For this reason, I recommend buying a Caterham - London Terminals season next time. It's the same price from any Southern station in Zone 6, and you can use the Fixed Link to access either line and not rely on this hidden interavailablity rule. If your existing season ticket doesn't expire for some time, you might wish to ask the ticket office for a season ticket changeover. There should be no calculations to do and no money needs to change hands due to the identical pricing.

For annual season tickets, all stations in Zone 6 beyond South Croydon are interavailable, except the Caterham branch which is excluded for some reason.
 
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