Southern Only tickets and validity on Gatwick Express

[Tomonthetrain]

Hi all

I am planning a trip on the Southern network and was wondering if there is a ticket that would cover the whole network including the services branded as Gatwick Express. I aim to cover from Victoria: Gatwick, Eastbourne, Ashford International and Brighton and possibly Worthing (time depending).

If anyone could help I would be greatful.

Tomonthetrain

 

[ushawk]

They say you cant use it on there, but its been posted a few people have used Southern only tickets with no problem, or have had the money they paid for a new ticket refunded.

Probably easier to use normal Southern services.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

They say you cant use it on there, but its been posted a few people have used Southern only tickets with no problem, or have had the money they paid for a new ticket refunded.

Probably easier to use normal Southern services.

I only intended to try the GatExp just to get some New Years Eve 442/460 haulage included with my 171

 

[TheJRB]

From what I understand, the best deal is DaySave which you have to book a week in advance (I think?) and that only covers Southern not Gatwick Express. It looks like if you want a trip on a 442, you'll either have to get an individual ticket for Gatwick Express or try your luck with the Southern BML diagrams as mentioned over on the Traction and Rolling Stock forum.

A tip regarding Brighton-Ashford if Southern aren't running four coach trains on the Marshlink: if you don't mind taking a little more time and don't care about 171 mileage but want to avoid the potential overcrowding, my advice would be to pick up an all stations Ore train, plan your interchange and change at Hastings. It might be slower but from my experience, west of Hastings the two car 171s get full quickly.

Hope I've been of some help.

 

[wintonian]

I only intended to try the GatExp just to get some New Years Eve 442/460 haulage included with my 171

I'm afraid this one is a complete can of worms.

There is a rather strong sense of opinion that Southern only tickets should be valid on Gatwick Express due to Gatwick Express not being a TOC.

However Southern seem to think differently and as such I would not recommend trying to use a Southern only ticket on Gatwick Express at present, hopefully this issue will get resolved one day.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It looks like if you want a trip on a 442, you'll either have to get an individual ticket for Gatwick Express or try your luck with the Southern BML diagrams as mentioned over on the Traction and Rolling Stock forum.

You might be able to find a any permitted or not London fare cheaper than the Gatwick Express fares, I haven't looked but I wouldn't be surprised.

For starters a London to Hove CDR is £22.90 instead of the £23.80 SDR on Gatwick Express who don't sell CDR's

Please don't tell Yorkie this thread is here as I do worry about his blood pressure when it comes to Gatwick Express.

 

[Brucey]

Given that DaySave terms actually say "Not valid on Gatwick Express", then that ticket is definitely not valid on GX.

However, SN only tickets are another can of worms.

 

[transportphoto]

Hello,

I am one of the opinion that daysaves are valid on the [Gatwick] Express as it is purley a Southern service operating as an Express, non stop. As discussed numerous times on this forum...

I agree, although it already isn't a dedicated service at 'peak' times!

Well, Gatwick Express is Southern (SN), but I know what you mean

Southern Only tickets are valid on the Gatwick Express route operated by Southern (source: NRCoC & DfT), and now there's no on board checks, there will be no-one to charge an excess if the person checking the tickets doesn't agree (forum members have had a mixed reaction to using Southern Only tickets: some were charged, and later refunded in full & compensated, while others were not charged).

Anyway that's a shock about Gatwick Express operated by Southern (some people will understand what I'm getting at) .

Does this still apply now the 'Express' is nothing more than a Southern train that simply runs fast?

The 'new' trains only say 'Express' not Gatwick Express, which only distances itself further from any restrictions.

The trains are operated by Southern, by southern employees, we have a load of evidence to support this, including GX's own webiste where it admits to being "managed and operated by Southern, the trading name for Southern Railway Limited, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of GOVIA Limited and is part of the Go-Ahead Group Rail Division."
Southern Railway Ltd (trading as 'Gatwick Express'. Company information. [online] Available at: <http://www.gatwickexpress.com/en/about-us/company-information/> [Accessed 22 DMR 2011].

A quick search using the search facility provided on this site for 'Gatwick Express' will produce most of the threads where this has been discussed.

TP

 

[Brucey]

But the services are announced as the "xx:xx Gatwick Express service to xx". They are also shown in the timetable as GX. Given the terms explicitly state "Not valid on Gatwick Express", I honestly don't think you have a leg to stand on.

 

[jon0844]

Given that DaySave terms actually say "Not valid on Gatwick Express", then that ticket is definitely not valid on GX.

However, SN only tickets are another can of worms.

But technically there is no Gatwick Express anymore. The 460s are still branded as such, but the 442s are just marked as 'Express' *(Edit: Do they announce as Gatwick Express on the train itself?). Plenty of trains have existed with names like Flyer, Cruiser, Metro etc - and that surely has nothing to do with a specific service.

I'd see the new 'Express' trains as normal Southern trains, manned by Southern staff and driven by a Southern driver.. and it's 'Express' because of the limited stopping pattern that makes it about 60 seconds quicker than a stopping service!

I suspect Southern knows this and will capitulate eventually, but every little helps and they'll try and hang on as long as they can. Whether it's worth the hassle of arguing on board is another story, however.

 

[ushawk]

Can this not be another debate about southern only fares on GX - been plenty already.

 

[transportphoto]

Can this not be another debate about southern only fares on GX - been plenty already.

I understand this, there has been, I have quoted posts from threads of the past to give compelling evidence that the fact that the 'Express' services are operated by southern, yet, as normal, it has to be discussed again otherwise we (as a forum) are giving out incorrect information regarding the validity of tickets.

But the services are announced as the "xx:xx Gatwick Express service to xx". They are also shown in the timetable as GX. Given the terms explicitly state "Not valid on Gatwick Express", I honestly don't think you have a leg to stand on.

As Jon says in his post which I have quoted Gatwick Express Limited, part of the National Express group, are no longer a trading company, as listed at Companies House.
Companies House. Company Details. [online] Available at: <http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/a1d2e9de0315924533e7355b6864d979/compdetails> [Accessed 22 DMR 2011].

But technically there is no Gatwick Express anymore. The 460s are still branded as such, but the 442s are just marked as 'Express'. Plenty of trains have existed with names like Flyer, Cruiser, Metro etc - and that surely has nothing to do with a specific service.

I'd see the new 'Express' trains as normal Southern trains, manned by Southern staff and driven by a Southern driver.. and it's 'Express' because of the limited stopping pattern that makes it about 60 seconds quicker than a stopping service!

I suspect Southern knows this and will capitulate eventually, but every little helps and they'll try and hang on as long as they can. Whether it's worth the hassle of arguing on board is another story, however.

In the now rare occurrence that you will now get your ticket checked onboard the Southern 'Express' service, as discussed here http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=56945, we have had the inspectors accept SR only tickets as most of them know that upon appeal it is found in the customers favour. If you have to argue, don't pay, this forum will be happy to support you in your appeal.

TP

 

[yorkie]

They say you cant use it on there, but its been posted a few people have used Southern only tickets with no problem, or have had the money they paid for a new ticket refunded.

Probably easier to use normal Southern services.

Gatwick Express is a Southern route, the trains are operated by Southern.

The NRCoC states:

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such
restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a
ticket that is not valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are
unable to use a ticket or any part of it, you may be able to claim a refund under
Condition 26 or Condition 36.

So, if a ticket is marked "Southern Only", it is restricted to travel in the trains of that Company. It is not valid on trains operated by other Companies.

Is Gatwick Express a company? A search at Companies House reveals that the company of this name has been defunct since the new integrated Southern franchise in 2008.

Some staff do claim that Gatwick Express is a separate company, and that the "umbrella company" is Go-Ahead and Gatwick Express is one of their companies, so let's check shall we? http://www.govia.info/doc/findoutmore/index.html "f you have any questions or feedback for us, please contact us or email our train operating companies as follows: Southeastern, Southern, London Midland"

If Gatwick Express was a separate company, it would appear as a think black line as "other operator route" on the Southern map. If it's merely a Southern route, it will appear as a red line with the key saying "Gatwick Express route", right? So, let's look at the map and see: http://www.southernrailway.com/images/network_map_full.jpg Ah, as I thought, it's shown there as part of the Southern network.

But let's not stop there. Ultimately the railway is regulated by the Department for Transport, ultimately it's their decision. Fortunately, someone has already asked if Stansted Express and Gatwick Express are TOCs. The relevant question is: "* Can you confirm whether Gatwick Express and Stansted Express are separate companies, as defined in Appendix A of the NRCoC?" and the answer from the DfT is: "I confirm that neither Stansted Express nor Gatwick Express are a Train Operating Company: Stansted Express is a trading name of the London Eastern Railway Limited Train Operating Company. Gatwick Express is a trading name of the Southern Railway Limited Train Operating Company."

Southern cannot go against the DfT. The DfT has specified an integrated franchise, this franchise requires the Gatwick Express route trains to have different branding but it does require the trains to be operated by the franchisee, Southern.

The Gatwick Express website states "© Gatwick Express is operated by Southern."

I know the media don't always get it right but this BBC article is correct: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14292920 furthermore, we could go to the ASA with a further case against Southern if they deny operating these trains.

It is true that 2 members of this forum were charged excess fares (calculated as the difference between a Southern Only single and an Any Permitted single) by staff who denied that the trains were operated by Southern, however in both cases members of this forum assisted the customers in obtaining a full refund (and more). In addition there are a double-figure number of customers who have told me that their Southern Only tickets were accepted when they brought a copy of the Southern route map and pointed out that the Gatwick Express is a Southern operated route.

Therefore, past history tells us that the OP is more likely to be allowed travel than be charged, but if the OP is charged, we we will certainly assist in writing a third letter requesting a full refund (plus a bit more for the inconvenience). London Travelwatch also have promised to assist us if Southern do not issue a full refund and someone very high-up at London Travelwatch is aware of this and we will not hesitate to contact him if there isn't an immediate refund for anyone who has been charged an excess.

 

[Brucey]

There is also another argument that I would like to present.

Southern services are operated by Southern Railway Ltd trading as Southern.
Gatwick Express services are operated by Southern Railway Ltd trading as Gatwick Express.

When the ticket says "Any Southern Train", it isn't saying "Any Southern Railway Ltd Train", it is only allowing travel on services branded as Southern (i.e. not Gatwick Express as this has its own trading name).

Using the argument that the train only says "Express" on the side won't stand up either. By that argument, you could say that a "FGW Only" ticket wouldn't be valid on the SWT hired unit as it isn't in FGW livery.

 

[transportphoto]

yorkie, I'll be PMing you in a little while with an idea which will put this matter to bed!

TP

 

[yorkie]

There is also another argument that I would like to present.

Southern services are operated by Southern Railway Ltd trading as Southern.
Gatwick Express services are operated by Southern Railway Ltd trading as Gatwick Express.

When the ticket says "Any Southern Train", it isn't saying "Any Southern Railway Ltd Train", it is only allowing travel on services branded as Southern (i.e. not Gatwick Express as this has its own trading name).

Using the argument that the train only says "Express" on the side won't stand up either. By that argument, you could say that a "FGW Only" ticket wouldn't be valid on the SWT hired unit as it isn't in FGW livery.

An excellent suggestion, Sir, with just two 'minor' flaws: 1. The Condition (NRCoC Condition 10) that restricts us to using Southern trains refers to a company, and 2. The Gatwick Express isn't a company.

 

[dvboy]

http://www.southernrailwaytickets.com/buytickets/daysave/DaySave.php?sEvent=TicketDetails

No mention of Gatwick Express and links to this map which shows the Gatwick Express as a Southern service.

http://www.southernrailway.com/images/network_map_20110225.pdf


That said, I've even managed to use a Southern DaySave on FCC since there were no ticket checks on the FCC train.

 

[Birdbrain]

Hi all

I am planning a trip on the Southern network and was wondering if there is a ticket that would cover the whole network including the services branded as Gatwick Express. I aim to cover from Victoria: Gatwick, Eastbourne, Ashford International and Brighton and possibly Worthing (time depending).

If anyone could help I would be greatful.

Tomonthetrain

From my own trip, you should easily do this in a day. I did:

Portsmouth, Gatwick, London Bridge, London Vic via Peckham, Brighton, Eastbourne, Ashford, Lewes, Seaford, Brighton, London Vic (442), Portsmouth.

You could get lucky with a 442 to Brighton as I did or take the Eastbourne Diagram if that still exists.

With regard to Gatwick Express. I was told that daysave is not vaild by the TM when I asked at Gatwick, so I did not board, hoping i would find one later in the day.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Is anyone interested in actually trying a 442 meet up bash with a daysave, would love to see the conductor try it with a bunch of 10 people moaning about and excess needed, then having to send a letter off for 10 x £5 of refunds!

I doubt they will be quick for that, I'm still waiting for my fiver from November....or was it September...some time ago anyway!

 

[Brucey]

Just for the record, I do actually think these would be valid on Gatwick Express. My point of throwing up these arguments is to ensure that every angle has been covered before anyway is advised to use such a ticket.

Is anyone interested in actually trying a 442 meet up bash with a daysave, would love to see the conductor try it with a bunch of 10 people moaning about and excess needed, then having to send a letter off for 10 x £5 of refunds!

That would indeed be very entertaining!

 

[Urban Gateline]

The Southern DaySave terms are made quite clear on the Southern site, so I can't believe the number of people suggesting to use it on the Gatwick express when it is clearly not valid. Ok maybe in the past some people have been refunded by Southern when charged an excess, however this is most likely a gesture of goodwill to negate bad press, it doesn't necessarily set a precedent.

http://www.southernrailwaytickets.com/main.php?page_id=189

 

[Brucey]

The Southern DaySave terms are made quite clear on the Southern site, so I can't believe the number of people suggesting to use it on the Gatwick express when it is clearly not valid. Ok maybe in the past some people have been refunded by Southern when charged an excess, however this is most likely a gesture of goodwill to negate bad press, it doesn't necessarily set a precedent.

http://www.southernrailwaytickets.com/main.php?page_id=189

The NRCoC are quite clear and state "Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket." If the ticket just says "Any Southern Train", the debate then boils down to what the definition of a Southern Train actually is.

 

[Urban Gateline]

The NRCoC are quite clear and state "Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket." If the ticket just says "Any Southern Train", the debate then boils down to what the definition of a Southern Train actually is.

But does it actually say that, It possibly states "Not Gatwick express" on it!

 

[Brucey]

But does it actually say that, It possibly states "Not Gatwick express" on it!

This could well be true. I haven't seen a ticket for a few months, so the wording could well have changed.

 

[yorkie]

My understanding is that when printed these Daysave tickets will say "Route: Southern Only" and therefore valid on all trains of that operator, as defined in NRCoC Condition 10.

I would advise against a Downlander as this is a print@home ticket and it might have a prohibition (whether legally enforceable or not is questionable and another matter) printed on it, however I have not seen one recently so cannot say either way.

 

[Urban Gateline]

My understanding is that when printed these Daysave tickets will say "Route: Southern Only" and therefore valid on all trains of that operator, as defined in NRCoC Condition 10.

I would advise against a Downlander as this is a print@home ticket and it might have a prohibition (whether legally enforceable or not is questionable and another matter) printed on it, however I have not seen one recently so cannot say either way.

Are you sure about this though? I have seen the DaySave tickets and they are not printed on normal stock, they are a green square'ish bit of paper custom made by Southern. It would be logical that the restrictions listed on the site would also be present on the DaySave ticket, however it would be good if someone who has one can confirm what it says on it!

 

[Brucey]

Are you sure about this though? I have seen the DaySave tickets and they are not printed on normal stock, they are a green square'ish bit of paper custom made by Southern. It would be logical that the restrictions listed on the site would also be present on the DaySave ticket, however it would be good if someone who has one can confirm what it says on it!

They are now printed on common ticket stock and can be collected from any Southern TVM. Certain issues (e.g. competition prizes) are still printed on the DaySave stock.

 

[yorkie]

Are you sure about this though? I have seen the DaySave tickets and they are not printed on normal stock, they are a green square'ish bit of paper custom made by Southern. It would be logical that the restrictions listed on the site would also be present on the DaySave ticket, however it would be good if someone who has one can confirm what it says on it!

I've had several Daysave tickets printed on orange stock stating "Southern Only" - which means all trains operated by Southern, as per NRCoC.

Only one person (out of around 10) who have told me they used a Daysave was charged and he got his money back in full.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Quite old, but:

6) ... It is only valid for journeys on services operated by Southern (which include Gatwick Express servcies).

...

These Terms and Conditions are Valid from September 2009 until further notice.

 

[yorkie]

Southern are happy to admit they operate the Gatwick Express route when it suits them.

However, at other times, they will claim it is a "different company", words like "sort of" or "kind of" slip in from time to time though, so it's clear they aren't exactly certain!

They also like to say that the "umbrella" organisation is Govia, and Govia own a company called Gatwick Express, who they "bought" in 2008. Clearly, neither statement is true and the Govia site makes it clear they run only 3 companies, not 4. http://www.govia.info/doc/findoutmore/index.html

 

[Brucey]

They also like to say that the "umbrella" organisation is Govia, and Govia own a company called Gatwick Express, who they "bought" in 2008. Clearly, neither statement is true and the Govia site makes it clear they run only 3 companies, not 4. http://www.govia.info/doc/findoutmore/index.html

Just to add a little more detail here, these are all the UK companies (AFAIK) which Govia Limited own a stake in:
GOVIA TRANSPORTATION PROJECTS LIMITED
LONDON & BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY LIMITED
LONDON & EAST MIDLANDS RAILWAY LIMITED
LONDON & SOUTH EASTERN RAILWAY LIMITED
NEW SOUTHERN RAILWAY LIMITED
NORTH LONDON ORBITAL RAILWAY LIMITED
SOUTHERN RAILWAY LIMITED
THAMESLINK RAIL LIMITED

Some of these companies also have a holding in other companies, which are:
NRES LIMITED
RAIL SETTLEMENT PLAN LIMITED
RAIL STAFF TRAVEL LIMITED
TRAIN INFORMATION SERVICES LIMITED
ATOC LIMITED (and also NATIONAL RAIL LIMITED)

No sign of any company called Gatwick Express being owned by Govia!