Southern passengers are actually paying less for their tickets since privatisation

[GodAtum]

Any truth to this?

http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/southern-passengers-are-actually-paying-less-for-their-tickets-since-privatisation/

Off-peak passengers travelling on Southern have paid up to 13 per cent less to travel on its services since privatisation, an independent source shows.

Passengers using Super Off-Peak tickets are paying 13 per cent less in real terms than at the time of privatisation of the railways in 1995, and those travelling on Off-Peak (Saver) tickets are paying 7 per cent less in real terms.

Commuters with season tickets have also benefited, with those on both standard and first class seasons, paying the same as they would have done 18 years ago.

The figures were revealed by Rail Magazine journalist, Barry Doe, a leading rail fares expert. In Rail Magazine (issue 731) he said: “It’s time for some facts. Look at the old SuperSavers and Savers (today’s Super Off-Peak and Off-Peak Returns) - Southern alone has lowered them, between 7 per cent and 13 per cent.”

Riz Wahid, Southern’s Head of Retail Development, said: “I’m delighted that Barry, who is a well known and well respected expert has shown what we know to be true - that Southern offers some really good value tickets for both our regular commuters, and our leisure passengers.

“We’re always looking to provide good value fares for our passengers and, in the future, our smartcard the key will offer some really innovative and great value tickets.”

 

[Harlesden]

Doubtful. If one TOC was reducing or even freezing fares while all other TOC's were raising them year by year, I'm sure the fact would have been widely publicised.
Aside from that "accumulating a knowledge of fares" is not the same thing as being an "expert". Mr. Doe's main claim to fame appears to be a website specializing in timetables along with a regular column in a rail magazine where he talks about fares.
Calling him a "Leading fares expert" seems an exaggeration.

 

[causton]

Looks like it takes into account inflation through the RPI or something...

 

[Paul Kelly]

Why is everyone so cynical?!!! Southern have some ridiculously cheap fares away from London, especially long-distance fares along the south coast, so I don't find the article surprising. Also it specifically mentions "in real terms", i.e. taking account of the effect of changes in the cost of living/inflation.

 

[SS4]

I notice there is no mention of when Super Off Peak and Off Peak tickets can be used though. If the new Off-Peak ticket is only valid at the times the old Super Off Peak was valid then it's an unfair comparison.

 

[bb21]

I believe this could well be true in the case of many Southern flows which don't involve travel via the London zonal area.

 

[johnnycache]

As the person formerly responsible for Southern fares i'm not at all surprised by the "news"

Note that Southern has not imposed evening peak restrictions on off-peak day tickets

Super off-peak have morning and evening restrictions but always have had since their introduction

Southern also introduced Advance fares from £5 from journeys from London to the coast (and vice versa)

Accompanied child fares are still £1

Long non-London journeys have often been capped at much lower levels than in BR days eg Ashford to Southampton £15 off-peak day return

Southern has tried to make money by growing the market rather than just extracting more from captive customers.

 

[bakerstreet]

I agree with johnnycache - Southern do have some v reasonably priced fares. In many cases a breath of fresh air. Now jonnycache, could you please do the same at SWT!

 

[bicbasher]

The Daysaves are still excellent value for money if travelling long distance making it possible to travel to Southampton and Ashford via Eastbourne and Hastings.

 

[yorkie]

I can certainly believe it. Southern's fares are (mostly) very reasonable indeed.

If you find your journey priced by SWT, depending on the journey in question, the best way to reduce it is to see if the journey is possible by Southern trains and/or by fares priced by Southern.

The same can apply with SouthEastern, but to a lesser extent.

I'd hope, and expect, there has been a shift away from SWT towards Southern for journeys such as Southampton, Epsom, etc to London, where there is a choice of operator.

SWT and SouthEastern appear to want to put people off travelling, and the fares reflect that mindset. That isn't the case with Southern.

 

[JonathanH]

I can certainly believe it. Southern's fares are (mostly) very reasonable indeed.

If you find your journey priced by SWT, depending on the journey in question, the best way to reduce it is to see if the journey is possible by Southern trains and/or by fares priced by Southern.

The same can apply with SouthEastern, but to a lesser extent.

I'd hope, and expect, there has been a shift away from SWT towards Southern for journeys such as Southampton, Epsom, etc to London, where there is a choice of operator.

SWT and SouthEastern appear to want to put people off travelling, and the fares reflect that mindset. That isn't the case with Southern.

Passengers travelling with Southern have the benefit that part of the revenue from South Coast to London tickets goes to First Capital Connect. Therefore, there can be Southern only tickets which don't destroy Southern's revenue base. Also, they are not the primary route from the extreme west and east of their area so can undercut the direct operators and make more money than they would from "Any Permitted" fares priced by SWT or SouthEastern. The two outer operators appear to be happy that they are maximising their revenue with the current level of fares.

It will be interesting to see whether the current lower fares on the Southern network disappear when the merger with the current First Capital Connect franchise happens.

 

[Greeby]

Something a little more concrete. I've got an old South Central timetable from 2003 that was recovered from Milton Keynes travel centre. On the back, it advertises PriceBuster (Now Super Off-Peak) with four zones of £6, £8, £10 and £12.50. Now the prices are £8.70, £12, £14.20 and £16.90

 

[W-on-Sea]

Well, according to this
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tion-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
taking account of inflation:

£6 in 2003 is the equivalent of £8.04 today
£8 in 2003 = £10.71 today
£10 in 2003 = £13.39 today
£12.50 in 2003 = £16.74 today

Which backs up Southern's claims...

 

[soil]

Well the thread title and the link don't say the same thing.

This is talking only about off-peak tickets and there's no detail, no methodology.

For example, there are over 100,000 SVR tickets priced by Southern. But you wouldn't want to place the same weight on Eynsford - Edenbridge, say, as London - Brighton.

It's meaningless without detail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, according to this
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tion-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
taking account of inflation:

£6 in 2003 is the equivalent of £8.04 today
£8 in 2003 = £10.71 today
£10 in 2003 = £13.39 today
£12.50 in 2003 = £16.74 today

Which backs up Southern's claims...

No it doesn't, the current fares are above that.

 

[Deerfold]

Has anyone seen the article in Rail 731 referred to to see exactly what Mr Doe actually said?

 

[johnnycache]

A additional few comments

Looks like it takes into account inflation through the RPI or something...

yes he will be adjusting fares for changes in RPI probably (although the Consumer Prices Index CPI is the usual measure of inflation and tends to be lower)

I notice there is no mention of when Super Off Peak and Off Peak tickets can be used though. If the new Off-Peak ticket is only valid at the times the old Super Off Peak was valid then it's an unfair comparison.

These have not been significantly changed. The evening peak restriction for super off-peak now starts at 1615 rather than 1645 due to very high loadings on trains leaving between those times

Passengers travelling with Southern have the benefit that part of the revenue from South Coast to London tickets goes to First Capital Connect. Therefore, there can be Southern only tickets which don't destroy Southern's revenue base. Also, they are not the primary route from the extreme west and east of their area so can undercut the direct operators and make more money than they would from "Any Permitted" fares priced by SWT or SouthEastern. The two outer operators appear to be happy that they are maximising their revenue with the current level of fares.

It will be interesting to see whether the current lower fares on the Southern network disappear when the merger with the current First Capital Connect franchise happens.

This is not quite how the system works. Every flow has a lead operator which sets the inter-available fare and generally (unless given special permission such as LM has between Milton Keynes
and Euston for off-peak fares) cannot set dedicated fares. Southern "suffers" from the fact that FCC can set dedicated fares at cheap prices while Southern cannot do the same and has to share revenue with FCC (as determined by ORCATS). So you will not see a "Southern only" fare from Worthing or Eastbourne to London. You will see Southern only fares from Portsmouth or Southampton because SWT is the lead operator and on these flows Southern is in the same position with respect to SWT as FCC is to Southern on the Brighton Main Line. What is not visible to the public are the income allocation disputes that arise between between Southern and FCC. As you can imagine Southern argues that FCC should receive less from inter-available fares where FCC offers dedicated fares as anyone who wants to travel on FCC has a cheaper option. These matters are usually settled by reference to survey data or sometimes ticket gate data which show how passengers actually behave when they have flexible tickets. Advance tickets are generally allocated 100% to the carrier (a bit more complicated for multi-TOC or "and connections" journeys) and the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement allows Lead Operators to set Advance train-specific fares.
Gatwick to London is subject to unique rules that require Southern and FCC to offer dedicated fares. Originally Gatwick Express was required to do the same but the DfT insisted when Southern merged with Gatwick Express that the premium fare to Victoria became "Any Permitted". We didn't have too much of a problem with that although "Any Permitted" is not nearly as clear as "Gatwick Express only" for the kind of people who travel to airports.

I think when the new joint franchise gets underway there will be a rationalisation of ticket types - which to be honest is badly needed - but because the franchise will not be keeping the revenue there should be no pressure (unless from the DfT) to hike fares.

Something a little more concrete. I've got an old South Central timetable from 2003 that was recovered from Milton Keynes travel centre. On the back, it advertises PriceBuster (Now Super Off-Peak) with four zones of £6, £8, £10 and £12.50. Now the prices are £8.70, £12, £14.20 and £16.90

Barry Doe said "since privatisation" not "since 2003" so that claim could still be true

This is talking only about off-peak tickets and there's no detail, no methodology.

For example, there are over 100,000 SVR tickets priced by Southern. But you wouldn't want to place the same weight on Eynsford - Edenbridge, say, as London - Brighton.

It's meaningless without detail.

I think it is important to understand the methodology Barry Doe has used.
He is unlikely to have revenue data so he is probably not weighting the various fares increases to give a proper average.