Southern Rail send the 'wrong type of train'

[edwin_m]

No, because the train may have to coast through a dead section. I know that they'll do this if there's an OHLE fault, so I'm guessing they might also do it when there's a third-rail fault.

Edit: Had a look at the rule book and there's no mention of coasting DC trains past a dead section, so I guess they would just coast to a convenient place to stop.

Not on the Met, but where there are transitions between the "true" LU fourth rail system and the Network Rail version (fourth rail bonded to the running rails), there must be a long enough dead section so that pickups that are electrically connected to each other can't be in contact with the two systems simultaneously. This is because the voltages of the live rails of the two systems (measured relative to the running rails) are a couple of hundred volts different.

 

[Johncleesefan]

If I was a driver on that route I would certainly check I was picking up a 377/2 or 377/7. Or perhaps I am expecting others to be as observant as me. Not fun for the driver.

Hmm I agree the driver should have checked (if this is as it appears (surely not as its southern)) but the blame starts with the service controller allocating the wrong stock. Its the old Swiss cheese analogy. All the holes line up and all that rubbish

 

[physics34]

i know the driver who worked that. All i can say is that he is new driving the route.

The depot were the ones who made the original mistake.

 

[bb21]

Wrong stock type being sent out is hardly a rare event. Uncommon but hardly rare.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How much extra weight and extra maintenance costs would be involved in having all of Southern's Electrostars and LO's Capitalstars equipped for dual-voltage all the time? I believe that weight wise they already have the concrete block which weighs the same as what the transformer would

 

[bb21]

Why would they want to do that given the small number of services running overheads?

Ignoring everything else, outlay for retrofitting them will come at a big cost for little gain.

 

[ExRes]

When I saw that today on our e-mails today it did give us the giggles. There is a reason why it happened, but cannot say.

Was it due to excessive pantograph sick absence?

 

[steamybrian]

Up to the closure of the Eridge to Tunbridge Wells line in 1985 "the wrong sort of stock" appeared on many occasions at Eridge to work a service via Tunbridge Wells to Tonbridge. To explain - Class 207 (Oxted units ) were permitted between Tunbridge Wells West and Tonbridge but class 205 (Hampshire) units were prohibited.
Happened to me several times when I travelled on a class 205 between Eridge to Tunbridge Wells West and then passengers (and train crew) would change to (a pre-prepared) class 207 unit on the adjacent platform to continue their journey. To the average "normal" passenger and some enthusiasts the carriages look the same.

 

[Elecman]

Not on the Met, but where there are transitions between the "true" LU fourth rail system and the Network Rail version (fourth rail bonded to the running rails), there must be a long enough dead section so that pickups that are electrically connected to each other can't be in contact with the two systems simultaneously. This is because the voltages of the live rails of the two systems (measured relative to the running rails) are a couple of hundred volts different.

Are tube train power cars independant so that there is no traction interconnection between unit pick up shoes?

 

[Busaholic]

It's not as bad as a double deck bus being allocated to a route that is only cleared for single deck operation - this has happened many times over the years in different places : luckily, where a low bridge is involved the driver or intending passengers has noticed before an accident happens, but, in the case of low-hanging trees, passengers have been injured by branches crashing through windows.

 

[Flamingo]

This will most likely have lead quickly to a classic 'culpability ping pong' session, with the allocations department insisting the Driver should have spotted it, and Driver management pointing out that the Driver was not obliged to check and sending the buck squarely back they way it came!

They'll both say it's the Guards fault - oh no, hang on ...

 

[bb21]

They'll both say it's the Guards fault - oh no, hang on ...

Given it's GTR, they'll probably insist that it's NR's fault.

I'm not kidding either.

 

[Met Driver]

Are tube train power cars independant so that there is no traction interconnection between unit pick up shoes?

That is the case for both tube and surface stock, yes.

 

[bramling]

Are tube train power cars independant so that there is no traction interconnection between unit pick up shoes?

Yes - so all you need are standard 15-metres gaps at the boundary to prevent two sections becoming linked ("bridged"). In the past there was a more complex arrangement on Putney Bridge fed through contactors when some types of surface LU stock had through bus bars, but this has not been the case for many years.

In the past there were various forms of electric train detectors built into the signalling system, but these were generally to prevent BR goods trains reaching the small Tube tunnels. Examples of where these could be found included Leyton and East Finchley. None of these survive today.

One variation on the theme still exists approaching Queen's Park on the Up DC, where current must be drawn through the -ve rail for the signal to clear towards LU. Again this is more to do with preventing a large train from reaching the Tube tunnel.

Unless anything has changed I don't believe there are any special arrangements at Harrow, as whilst it might be inconvenient for a LU Train to reach the unelectrified section, it's not really unsafe. In fact, it happened about 10-15 years ago (roughly) when an A stock train started up southwards from Platform 2 and came to a rest just south of the platforms. Took a lot of contorting about with rail gap jumper leads to get it back on juice.

 

[AngusH]

This seems like the sort of process error that a pre-departure checklist would probably prevent.

It doesn't seem that they get much used in railways though?

 

[bramling]

This seems like the sort of process error that a pre-departure checklist would probably prevent.

It doesn't seem that they get much used in railways though?

Every train in service will have been through a sort-of checklist process when being prepared for service, although it will generally take the form of a date/signature rather than a checklist as such.

Generally diagramming the right stock to the right diagrams is left up to the depots putting the trains into service and TOC control once the train is in service. Once past that point it's up to the driver to notice.

It's not perfect and mistakes do happen, although generally minor in consequence. I remember a mini-storm after one of the Uckfield Gala events in the 1990s, when one of the end-of-day workings up from Uckfield to Oxted (then ECS to Selhurst) was extended to East Croydon. This wouldn't ordinarily have been a problem, except that the train was formed of 2x class 207, which at the time didn't have any window bars, and trains working through Oxted Tunnel were required to have them. Evidently no one noticed at the time, but it was certainly picked up afterwards.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Reminds me of this excellent story from the late District Dave:

http://www.trainweb.org/districtdave/html/confession_time_.html

 

[Sacro]

Again this is more to do with preventing a large train from reaching the Tube tunnel.

More likely Queens Park depot being demolished around it will be the first issue, probably wouldn't fit through the platforms either.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Would be surprised if The Standard knew the difference between trains.Shockingly bad rag.

Love the stock picture of a diesel train in the article.

Oh dear,a common thing with newspaper reports.

 

[Class377/5]

How much extra weight and extra maintenance costs would be involved in having all of Southern's Electrostars and LO's Capitalstars equipped for dual-voltage all the time? I believe that weight wise they already have the concrete block which weighs the same as what the transformer would

There's no extra weight as all Electrostars weight the same pan or no pan. This is achieved by concrete rafts on the SV units to give them the same weight as DV units. Other wise you get performance issues with differently weighted types of units including difference affects on the braking systems. It's easier all round to have one weight and one set up.

 

[Tracked]

Would be surprised if The Standard knew the difference between trains.Shockingly bad rag.



Oh dear,a common thing with newspaper reports.

My local paper often uses a picture of a 150/2 in its original livery for train stories on its website

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I believe that SWTs has (or at least did have) a computer system called Gemani which records where stock is, what diagram stock is on, when it's due for maintenance, etc does Southern have any sort of equivalent system?

 

[class387]

On a related subject, didn't a 321 get sent down to King's Lynn, as said in the 'Great Northern Weekend Cancellations' thread?

 

[QueensCurve]

This will most likely have lead quickly to a classic 'culpability ping pong' session, with the allocations department insisting the Driver should have spotted it, and Driver management pointing out that the Driver was not obliged to check and sending the buck squarely back they way it came!

In other words a blame game.

It is the system that failed, not the driver or the allocations dept. They need to work together to find a way of delivering quality, which includes delivering the right train.

 

[geoffk]

Can someone explain exactly where the DC/AC changeover point is on the West London line? My notes have it "just north of the Westway flyover" or "near North Pole Jn". I know that third rail was laid to north Pole to allow Eurostars to reach the depot. So do Southern trains have to change traction on the move, or is there an overlap? The press report refers to Shepherd's Bush.

This is a complex area to someone who's never lived in London.

 

[QueensCurve]

Up to the closure of the Eridge to Tunbridge Wells line in 1985 "the wrong sort of stock" appeared on many occasions at Eridge to work a service via Tunbridge Wells to Tonbridge. To explain - Class 207 (Oxted units ) were permitted between Tunbridge Wells West and Tonbridge but class 205 (Hampshire) units were prohibited.

Similar in a way to the experience I had traveling from Machynlledd to Birmingham about 3 y ago.

Arriving at Shrewsbury in a Class 158 we were advised the train would terminate early and should change for Birmingham. An apparently identical Class 158 arrived on the Birmingham to Machynlledd working and everyone swapped trains.

When I queried this, I was told the unit we had just boarded was not ETCS equipped and therefore could not proceed onto the Cambrian.

No headlines that time.

 

[subria]

Can someone explain exactly where the DC/AC changeover point is on the West London line? My notes have it "just north of the Westway flyover" or "near North Pole Jn". I know that third rail was laid to north Pole to allow Eurostars to reach the depot. So do Southern trains have to change traction on the move, or is there an overlap? The press report refers to Shepherd's Bush.

This is a complex area to someone who's never lived in London.

That's pretty much the location. I'm not sure of Southern operating procedure, but Overground 378s will do it on the move at low speed. I believe the timing is still scheduled for a full stop for the changeover, but they will tend to do it on the move now unless they don't have enough momentum to coast through.

My understanding is the overhead hasn't been extended into Shepherd's Bush station due to issues with electrical interference with passing under the Hammersmith and City line

 

[43074]

On a related subject, didn't a 321 get sent down to King's Lynn, as said in the 'Great Northern Weekend Cancellations' thread?

Not really the ''wrong type of train'' though as it wouldn't prevent the service from running - they're cleared down there and there isn't an AC/DC changeover. A different unit to that booked is different to trying to use a DC only train where there's no 3rd rail.

 

[Ianno87]

Not really the ''wrong type of train'' though as it wouldn't prevent the service from running - they're cleared down there and there isn't an AC/DC changeover. A different unit to that booked is different to trying to use a DC only train where there's no 3rd rail.

My father-in-law tells me of an incident many years ago of a 365 accidentally being sent towards Peterborough....at Ely North Jn! Needless to say it went way beyond the limit of electrification on the Down Line.

Apparently it took two further 365s, with the rear unit still on the stub of the wires, to reach out and couple to the stranded unit to drag it back to terra firma.

 

[tsr]

Can someone explain exactly where the DC/AC changeover point is on the West London line? My notes have it "just north of the Westway flyover" or "near North Pole Jn". I know that third rail was laid to north Pole to allow Eurostars to reach the depot. So do Southern trains have to change traction on the move, or is there an overlap? The press report refers to Shepherd's Bush.

This is a complex area to someone who's never lived in London.

That's pretty much the location. I'm not sure of Southern operating procedure, but Overground 378s will do it on the move at low speed. I believe the timing is still scheduled for a full stop for the changeover, but they will tend to do it on the move now unless they don't have enough momentum to coast through.

My understanding is the overhead hasn't been extended into Shepherd's Bush station due to issues with electrical interference with passing under the Hammersmith and City line

The changeover is performed whilst at a stand in the vicinity of a specific signal on the dual-electrified section of line at North Pole. At times this line is also used to turn back 455s which are actually booked to work as far as Shepherds Bush in the weekday peaks during the normal timetable (known as the "Shepherds Bush Shuttles" by crew). There are several minutes allowed on diagrams for the changeover. I believe you can theoretically do it on the move on 377s but I've only heard about it once, and have never experienced it, including a period of time when I worked on the WLL.

I can well imagine interference between different electrification systems causing issues, and apparently there had to be some pretty careful design to make sure the Watford DC and WCML overheads worked in close proximity to each other, to name another example of where power issues could arise.

As for the error being made with a train getting up the WLL without a pantograph, on reflection I suppose it is entirely possible that due to the disrupted and very limited Southern service in those parts at present, the driver and indeed conductor were simply expecting to receive a stop order to terminate at Shepherds Bush - but that one just never came and they forgot to query it (those trains can be rammed solid; for a conductor, dispatch requires much concentration; for a driver, focussing on the signalling layout and trying to drive efficiently is equally hard) and...! Pure speculation on my part though; nobody I have spoken to has found out a plausible complete analysis of the reason and I may well not ever have need to find out or want to post it.