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Southern Region late 1970s - class 73s and 47s

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Hi all, hope someone can help with a little info here - on the school jaunt back in 1978/79 (Fareham to Portsmouth/Southsea), I always remember there'd be a solitary Class 73 sitting at one of the lower level platforms at Portsmouth in the mornings - would anyone know what/how they'd have got there? I have an idea it might have been a parcel train, but memory's a bit shot on this.

Also recall very occasional sights of 47s at Fratton, which was heftier looking traction than we'd have been used to day to day - any clues at to what would bring the odd Brush to that line?

Thanks in advance!
 
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Bevan Price

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There were several overnight newspaper trains out of London that also conveyed a few passenger coaches, usually worked by Class 73s. When I get time, I will look through old timetables for more details, but I seem to recall that Portsmouth was one of the destinations. .

For a while, there was also a weekend West Country - Portsmouth - Brighton service that was worked by 73s (often a 73/0) between Portsmouth & Brighton.
 

ChiefPlanner

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The Southern never had class 47's allocated to it , but many worked in on Freightliners , company trains and the odd Cross Country. If there was spare time in a diagram they might be used for some local work.

Course they had plenty of 33 and 73 allocated , and the latter were fairly underutilised , so there was no issue for example, in releasing 6 or so for the Gatwick Express (when the latter was a proper service - not a red EMU !)
 

Bevan Price

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The Southern never had class 47's allocated to it , but many worked in on Freightliners , company trains and the odd Cross Country. If there was spare time in a diagram they might be used for some local work.

Not quite correct. Eastleigh had D1921 - D1926 in the 1960s, replacing some withdrawn Bulleid Pacifics until Bournemouth line electrification was being completed.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Not quite correct. Eastleigh had D1921 - D1926 in the 1960s, replacing some withdrawn Bulleid Pacifics until Bournemouth line electrification was being completed.

I knew that - but hoped someone would not be aware ! - they were not there for long.
 

Peter Mugridge

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47s would also turn up on the Waterloo - Exeter services, especially in the later years when the 50s were being run down - but within the time span the thread relates to I think they only appeared as substitutions rather than being diagrammed; am I right?
 

30907

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A few years earlier, the 72-73 WTT gives two booked EDL (class 73/74) at Southsea LL:
Arrivals
0426 News, 0230 ex Waterloo
0725 parcels ex Bolton (EDL from Willesden at a guess)
Departures
2203 Willesden
The papers returned ECS 1150 Fratton Yard to Clapham Jn

I was working at Waterloo in 78-79 and am confident that the 0230 papers was still running and still booked for an EDL. I am not sure about the Bolton/Willesden (mail order traffic was declining rapidly).
 
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In 1982 the 02:30 was shown as diesel hauled (head code shown so guessing Cl 33 haulage booked) and the 02:15 Weymouth shown as ED hauled

Paul
 

mind the gap

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When did the Portsmouth > Manchester and Portsmouth > Liverpool services start running?
( via Guildford, reading, Oxford, lemington spa, new st, etc.)

Late 70’s may be too early, but I can remember these being 47 hauled
 

30907

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When did the Portsmouth > Manchester and Portsmouth > Liverpool services start running?
( via Guildford, reading, Oxford, lemington spa, new st, etc.)

Late 70’s may be too early, but I can remember these being 47 hauled

They don't appear in the 1981 TT that came to hand - the Manchester-Kenny O-Brightons were first on the scene.

In 1982 the 02:30 was shown as diesel hauled (head code shown so guessing Cl 33 haulage booked) and the 02:15 Weymouth shown as ED hauled

Paul

In 72-73 all the paper trains were timed EDL (except the Yeovil, naturally). But that confirms my memory that the timetable didn't change over that period.
 

eastwestdivide

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According to the SEG's 1982-83 Southern Unusual Train Services booklet, there was:
an overnight FO 2156 Leeds-Portsmouth H diagrammed for a 47 (returning as 1020 SO Portsmouth H-Leeds)
the newspapers were (I think) the service shown as 0433 Eastleigh-Portsmouth booked for a 33 (possibly a portion off the 0245 Waterloo-Bournemouth booked 73),
except Sundays when there was an 0315 Waterloo-Portsmouth booked for 73.
 

30907

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The 0245 was described as Passenger and News, with through passenger coaches to Portsmouth MO (one of a number of services, not all advertised, for the Navy), but there were still separate paper trains as per post #8. I think they included a BSK in the formation, not officially available to passengers.
 

Taunton

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The big smash in the middle of the night at Raynes Park in 1967, which led to the demolition of the station footbridge, was one of these electro-diesel hauled newspaper services, at this time one of the 10 Class 74, converted from the Class 71 electrics, which really did not have a lot to do otherwise, were notably unreliable compared to the stalwart Class 73 which preceded them, and were withdrawn after only a few years' service.

At that time it was the 03.40 to Woking, divide for Guildford and Basingstoke. It contained a rake of 45mph 4-wheel vans back in the formation, but although the guard had advised this restriction, it turned out he was not speaking to the relevant driver ... who accelerated to normal bogie vehicle speed, whereupon these vans at the rear of the train all derailed and overturned. No newspapers for Surrey that morning. And if you know what you are looking for at Raynes Park, you can still see the scars of the incident.
 

satisnek

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When did the Portsmouth > Manchester and Portsmouth > Liverpool services start running?
( via Guildford, reading, Oxford, lemington spa, new st, etc.)

Late 70’s may be too early, but I can remember these being 47 hauled
May 1982. There was a weekday Manchester-Portsmouth service which called at Guildford at around 7pm, always worth seeing for a 'foreign' loco... "Just taking the dog for a walk, Mum"...

There was the odd 47 at Guildford on non-passenger services before this, but I'm unable to recall any further details.
 

12CSVT

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The Southern never had class 47's allocated to it , but many worked in on Freightliners , company trains and the odd Cross Country. If there was spare time in a diagram they might be used for some local work.
The 47/7s in use on the Waterloo - Exeter route were briefly allocated to Eastleigh in 1993 (for about 6 months)
Also 47223/278/478/525/555 spent time allocated to Stewarts Lane between 1992 and 1994
 

Shaw S Hunter

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A few years earlier, the 72-73 WTT gives two booked EDL (class 73/74) at Southsea LL:
Arrivals
0426 News, 0230 ex Waterloo
0725 parcels ex Bolton (EDL from Willesden at a guess)
Departures
2203 Willesden
The papers returned ECS 1150 Fratton Yard to Clapham Jn

I was working at Waterloo in 78-79 and am confident that the 0230 papers was still running and still booked for an EDL. I am not sure about the Bolton/Willesden (mail order traffic was declining rapidly).

Someone else will have to confirm dates but ISTR that Bolton was one of those places where a local mail order firm stuck with rail rather longer than most. Worcester Shrub Hill was another. And searching (unsuccessfully) for more information did at least turn up this site: http://www.class40motherlist.com/ Enjoy!
 

30907

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Someone else will have to confirm dates but ISTR that Bolton was one of those places where a local mail order firm stuck with rail rather longer than most. Worcester Shrub Hill was another. And searching (unsuccessfully) for more information did at least turn up this site: http://www.class40motherlist.com/ Enjoy!

Undoibtedly the reason for the traffic, though I suspect it was a typical parcels train with vans from here and there to everywhere. Haven't got a carriage working notice to check.
 

36270k

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In the 1970's there were also Class 73 hauled news trains from Victoria to Brighton and Eastbourne.
 
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Hi all, sorry, I tend to just drop a question here and then don't visit for three weeks! Thanks so much for the input - reconstructing my childhood here!
 

Cowley

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Afternoon everyone.
This is a bit of a thread bounce, but I’ve been trying to find photos of nighttime SR mail services which include a passenger vehicle, preferably 33 or 73 hauled. Not having a lot of luck though.
Does anyone know where might be a good site to try?
 

hexagon789

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47s would also turn up on the Waterloo - Exeter services, especially in the later years when the 50s were being run down - but within the time span the thread relates to I think they only appeared as substitutions rather than being diagrammed; am I right?

Yes, most of the 47s came in in 1990 to replace the 50s, being ex-ScotRail 47/7s, though NSE had 47/4s before that, I think they tended to be used for the Oxford and Birmingham trains while the 50s were still in full swing
 

Cowley

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Yes, most of the 47s came in in 1990 to replace the 50s, being ex-ScotRail 47/7s, though NSE had 47/4s before that, I think they tended to be used for the Oxford and Birmingham trains while the 50s were still in full swing
There was a period in 1988 where we had all manner of 47/4s drafted in to cover for an enormous dip in class 50 availability, and many of the 47s were ex Scottish ones. Off the top of my head I remember having trips behind 47637 and 47640 amongst others.
I’m away at the moment but I’ll have a look at my books when I get back.
 

hexagon789

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There was a period in 1988 where we had all manner of 47/4s drafted in to cover for an enormous dip in class 50 availability, and many of the 47s were ex Scottish ones. Off the top of my head I remember having trips behind 47637 and 47640 amongst others.
I’m away at the moment but I’ll have a look at my books when I get back.

I knew NSE got the 47/7s which were ex-ScotRail, obviously(!), hadn't realised you got some of our 47/4s as well!
 

Cowley

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I knew the 47/7s sent south were ex-ScotRail, obviously(!), hadn't realised you got some of our 47/4s as well!
Yes it was an interesting time, but after a while it all settled down.
I’ll work it out when I get back as there were some surprising ones in there.
 

cav1975

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The 0245 was described as Passenger and News, with through passenger coaches to Portsmouth MO (one of a number of services, not all advertised, for the Navy),
I remember catching the 0245 in the 70s on my way to the Isle of Wight. A change at Eastleigh was required most mornings (there was a through BSK one day a week I recall) and the Eastleigh to Portsmouth leg was always a 33. This was before electrification.
 

30907

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Afternoon everyone.
This is a bit of a thread bounce, but I’ve been trying to find photos of nighttime SR mail services which include a passenger vehicle, preferably 33 or 73 hauled. Not having a lot of luck though.
Does anyone know where might be a good site to try?
The only mails (as opposed to papers) were the Weymouth and the Dover (London Br via Redhill); the latter wasn't available to passengers.
Websites: Sremg possibly, Kentrail - or even Google, which sometimes comes up trumps ("dover mail train" in pictures produces one of the Willesden to Dover post privatisation).
 

randyrippley

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Afternoon everyone.
This is a bit of a thread bounce, but I’ve been trying to find photos of nighttime SR mail services which include a passenger vehicle, preferably 33 or 73 hauled. Not having a lot of luck though.
Does anyone know where might be a good site to try?

The night time / early morning trains were newspaper trains, not mail trains. On the WofE mail was carried on any train - most formations had a GUV or full brake or similar at each end. Sometimes this was a six-wheeler or a Gresley pigeon van.
The newspaper train got into Yeovil Junction around 03:00 and then worked back to Waterloo as the first up passenger train at around 06:45
It was a short formed set compared with the rest of the route - just six (or seven?) two of which were vans.
It continued to run for a while even after the newspaper traffic was lost - but as a 33/4-TC
 

Cowley

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The night time / early morning trains were newspaper trains, not mail trains. On the WofE mail was carried on any train - most formations had a GUV or full brake or similar at each end. Sometimes this was a six-wheeler or a Gresley pigeon van.
The newspaper train got into Yeovil Junction around 03:00 and then worked back to Waterloo as the first up passenger train at around 06:45
It was a short formed set compared with the rest of the route - just six (or seven?) two of which were vans.
It continued to run for a while even after the newspaper traffic was lost - but as a 33/4-TC
Dammit. I meant to put “Newspaper trains” in the post but forgot for some reason.
Come on Mr Ripley, you’re good at digging photos of this kind of thing up. ;)
 

Cowley

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The only mails (as opposed to papers) were the Weymouth and the Dover (London Br via Redhill); the latter wasn't available to passengers.
Websites: Sremg possibly, Kentrail - or even Google, which sometimes comes up trumps ("dover mail train" in pictures produces one of the Willesden to Dover post privatisation).
Just missed this. I’ll have a look tomorrow 30907.
 
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