• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Southern ticket machines being deceptive

Status
Not open for further replies.

ianBR

Member
Joined
4 Jan 2015
Messages
98
I recently went to Victoria at 5pm to buy a single ticket to Brighton to travel now

The machine offered the choice of these tickets:

  • Off-Peak Single - with a huge warning that it would not be valid a peak times and to check restrictions
  • Anytime Single
Clearly most people would assume that the warning was there relating to the evening peak times which you are clearly in.

However off-peak is valid for any train leaving after 9.30am, so why is the ticket machine not programmed to only offer that fare after 9.30am? The difference in price is not that significant but the vast majority of people will probably pick the more expensive fare just for fear of having the wrong ticket.

Even worse on the next screen you get this unhelpful scenario so you can't even go to the national rail website to read up on the restriction if you wanted to!....

  • IMG_5029.jpg
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Wallsendmag

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2014
Messages
5,133
Location
Wallsend or somewhere in GB
Sorry what's deceptive? There was a plan a couple of years ago that made sure people were aware of the restriction appertaining to tickets. This asks you to check. Again LNER machines do a journey plan to verify your ticket is valid for your journey but we were panned for introducing this feature.
 

richa2002

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,270
I would say deceptive is the wrong word. Unclear/unhelpful is more accurate.
 

ianBR

Member
Joined
4 Jan 2015
Messages
98
Well it wouldn't take very complicated computer programming to work out what time of day it was and only sell off-peak tickets if someone is buying a single ticket for today.
If time>09:30 then hide anytime option.

In addition why not give an option to display all the restrictions on the screen rather than an obscure reference to the national rail website whilst blocking the code you'd need to search for by superimposing an arrow over the top of it. Don't they do any user testing of these things.

How are tourists supposed to navigate all that?

It would be interesting to see what percentage of anytime tickets are bought unnecessarily after 9.30am every day.
 
Last edited:

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,866
Location
Airedale
The much maligned Northern machines tell you if cheaper tickets are available at the time of purchase.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
14,875
Well it wouldn't take very complicated computer programming to work out what time of day it was and only sell off-peak tickets if someone is buying a single ticket for today.
If time>09:30 then hide anytime option.
But there are industry requirements to sell all tickets at all times which prevent such actions.
 

MotCO

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,085
But there are industry requirements to sell all tickets at all times which prevent such actions.
Can they not be offered on another screen? I've seen other reports on this forum which suggest that some valid tickets need hunting out by going to subsequent screens.
 

ianBR

Member
Joined
4 Jan 2015
Messages
98
But there are industry requirements to sell all tickets at all times which prevent such actions.

And yet these same ticket machines refuse to sell off-peak tickets in the morning, even where people know they are travelling after 9.30am (forcing people to go to the ticket office for the right ticket or buy a more expensive one)

The industry can't have it both ways. If it is possible to restrict ticket options in the morning peak to tickets it deems most appropriate there is no excuse not to do that once the morning peak has finished
 

Wallsendmag

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2014
Messages
5,133
Location
Wallsend or somewhere in GB
We used to do exactly that with our Worldline machines but you have to be careful with open returns as all options have to be available due to return restrictions.
 

talldave

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2013
Messages
2,169
And yet these same ticket machines refuse to sell off-peak tickets in the morning, even where people know they are travelling after 9.30am (forcing people to go to the ticket office for the right ticket or buy a more expensive one)

The industry can't have it both ways. If it is possible to restrict ticket options in the morning peak to tickets it deems most appropriate there is no excuse not to do that once the morning peak has finished
When I used to travel through Gatwick a lot I often wanted to buy a ticket for the following day to avoid the queues. However, the machines would refuse to sell an off-peak ticket, so I would stand by the machine, purchase the ticket on my phone and collect it from the machine immediately, pointing out to the staff the absurdity of the situation!
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
Sorry what's deceptive? There was a plan a couple of years ago that made sure people were aware of the restriction appertaining to tickets. This asks you to check. Again LNER machines do a journey plan to verify your ticket is valid for your journey but we were panned for introducing this feature.
Panned by whom?

I've only seen criticisms relayed to LNER's appalling user interfaces on ticket machines. Nothing to do with their features. Being in systems I thought you'd know that.
 

FenMan

Established Member
Joined
13 Oct 2011
Messages
1,361
But there are industry requirements to sell all tickets at all times which prevent such actions.

Er, ok. The GWR ticket machines don't show any super off peak tickets, priced by SWR, from my home station I've given up that GWR will do anything about it and now buy the correct ticket while standing next to the machine, using my phone.
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,801
But there are industry requirements to sell all tickets at all times which prevent such actions.

Is that *literally* the case?

If so:

(a) it would explain why Northern’s new machines offer anytime day returns on Saturdays

and

(b) blatantly mislead passengers and lead to overcharging

Surely if like the example I’ve described there are *absolutely no circumstances* where the more expensive ticket is the correct one for the customer, why insist it’s offered?
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
14,875
Is that *literally* the case?

If so:

(a) it would explain why Northern’s new machines offer anytime day returns on Saturdays

and

(b) blatantly mislead passengers and lead to overcharging

Surely if like the example I’ve described there are *absolutely no circumstances* where the more expensive ticket is the correct one for the customer, why insist it’s offered?
I sympathise with your view on this. Unfortunately the industry data is structured around when a ticket is valid rather than when it is appropriate to sell a ticket.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,383
Location
Back office
So this is how the real world works.

TOCs will suppress the sale of tickets where it may lead to revenue loss. This is why TVMs tend not to offer Off Peak tickets at times of day when only Anytime tickets are valid, which is fair enough.

TOCs often will not suppress the sale of tickets where people may overpay. For example, the situation in the first post and things like Anytime Day Returns / Travelcards being offered on the front page popular tickets display on weekends - and people buy them. It is known this is the case, but it is not a priority issue to address on the TOC side. It probably costs a fortune to have TVMs reprogrammed to collect less revenue. It is cheaper to signpost customers to information on restrictions which a significant number of people won't understand with the way they are written.

The onus is placed on the customer to know what they are buying so as not to pay more than necessary. The pragmatic approach is to know what you're buying so you don't overpay and not worry about it.
 
Last edited:

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,801
The onus is placed on the customer to know what they are buying so as not to pay more than necessary. Is anyone here expecting TOCs to pay what's probably an absolute fortune to reprogram TVMs to collect less revenue? The pragmatic approach is to know what you're buying so you don't overpay and not worry about it.

And that would be just about ok if the ticketing system was straightforward enough for the average user to confidently choose the correct, best value ticket. But it isn’t. Over time the industry has made it ever more complicated. The fact that the TOCs can be bothered to protect themselves from customers erroneously buying tickets cheaper than they should, but can’t be bothered when it’s the other way round, is immoral. But sadly not illegal
 

DaveB10780

Member
Joined
10 Sep 2015
Messages
210
And that would be just about ok if the ticketing system was straightforward enough for the average user to confidently choose the correct, best value ticket. But it isn’t. Over time the industry has made it ever more complicated. The fact that the TOCs can be bothered to protect themselves from customers erroneously buying tickets cheaper than they should, but can’t be bothered when it’s the other way round, is immoral. But sadly not illegal
Seconded immoral is a good word.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,383
Location
Back office
And that would be just about ok if the ticketing system was straightforward enough for the average user to confidently choose the correct, best value ticket. But it isn’t. Over time the industry has made it ever more complicated. The fact that the TOCs can be bothered to protect themselves from customers erroneously buying tickets cheaper than they should, but can’t be bothered when it’s the other way round, is immoral. But sadly not illegal

That's right. I favour taking a pragmatic approach over spending time thinking about something that isn't going to change. As a profession I help people to make the right choice of ticket and out of work get calls from people inside and outside of the railways asking for that kind of information.

The system is what it is. It's down to individuals to either conduct the necessary research if getting the best value ticket is important to them, or consult a trusted person who can advise if that's easier.
 

Iggy12a

Member
Joined
31 May 2017
Messages
151
To be fair to Southern, if you look in the middle of the screen that the OP showed, the time at which the ticket is valid, is indeed shown. Screenshot_20200224-202049.png
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,383
Location
Back office
To be fair to Southern, if you look in the middle of the screen that the OP showed, the time at which the ticket is valid, is indeed shown. View attachment 74582

It would help if it clarifies what times it's valid on weekends. A lot of customers ask what time the first off peak train is on weekends and quite a few hold off starting their journeys until 0930 on weekends.
 

Wallsendmag

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2014
Messages
5,133
Location
Wallsend or somewhere in GB
So this is how the real world works.

TOCs will suppress the sale of tickets where it may lead to revenue loss. This is why TVMs tend not to offer Off Peak tickets at times of day when only Anytime tickets are valid, which is fair enough.

TOCs often will not suppress the sale of tickets where people may overpay. For example, the situation in the first post and things like Anytime Day Returns / Travelcards being offered on the front page popular tickets display on weekends - and people buy them. It is known this is the case, but it is not a priority issue to address on the TOC side. It probably costs a fortune to have TVMs reprogrammed to collect less revenue. It is cheaper to signpost customers to information on restrictions which a significant number of people won't understand with the way they are written.

The onus is placed on the customer to know what they are buying so as not to pay more than necessary. The pragmatic approach is to know what you're buying so you don't overpay and not worry about it.
I've got more than enough work on my hands already without playing that sort of game and no I don't cost the TOC that I work for a fortune.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
3,475
Location
Reading
But sadly not illegal
Actually it might well be illegal if the train company was aware it was overcharging and chose not to address the problem, but the DfT handed the enforcement / prosecution role to the seemingly disinterested ORR. It might be more effective if the DfT transferred the enforcement powers to a more consumer-focussed body - I think even Transport Focus would make a much better job of it. Imagine the step change in behaviour we might see if Transport Focus could prosecute a TOC if it failed to address adequately systematic problems that it identified like this one. As things stand, Transport Focus should be putting pressure on the ORR to obtain internal records from the TOCs concerned with a view to prosecution.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,383
Location
Back office
I've got more than enough work on my hands already without playing that sort of game and no I don't cost the TOC that I work for a fortune.

It is how the TVMs are programmed at some locations in the UK - it has been that way for years.

Where you are investment has probably been made in the software and hardware that makes it possible to implement those kind of changes for a marginal cost. However not everywhere does things the same way.
 
Last edited:

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
2,690
Location
London
That's right. I favour taking a pragmatic approach over spending time thinking about something that isn't going to change. As a profession I help people to make the right choice of ticket and out of work get calls from people inside and outside of the railways asking for that kind of information.

The system is what it is. It's down to individuals to either conduct the necessary research if getting the best value ticket is important to them, or consult a trusted person who can advise if that's easier.

I don't see that anyone should need to "conduct the necessary research" in order to get on a train! You go to the station, buy a ticket from the ticket office or a machine, and expect (or at least I do) to be sold the best (cheapest) available ticket to make the journey. Why would the causal traveller even know there was any research to be done?
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,383
Location
Back office
I don't see that anyone should need to "conduct the necessary research" in order to get on a train! You go to the station, buy a ticket from the ticket office or a machine, and expect (or at least I do) to be sold the best (cheapest) available ticket to make the journey. Why would the causal traveller even know there was any research to be done?

Lots of people choose unnecessarily expensive ticket types from the TVMs. Some people buy Anytime Day Travelcards from the TVMs on weekends because it's prominently advertised on the front page and they think that the name implies the Off Peak Day Travelcard has restrictions.

Some time spent comprehending the software and available ticket types would save them money.
 

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
2,690
Location
London
Lots of people choose unnecessarily expensive ticket types from the TVMs. Some people buy Anytime Day Travelcards from the TVMs on weekends because it's prominently advertised on the front page and they think that the name implies the Off Peak Day Travelcard has restrictions.

Some time spent comprehending the software and available ticket types would save them money.

Why would anyone even think they needed to spend time "comprehending the software"? Many people don't even know they're being ripped off. If machines are capable of selling too-expensive tickets, and there aren't enough staff to deal with travellers face-to-face to ensure that doesn't happen, then as far as I'm concerned the railway companies are defrauding people.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
14,875
Why would anyone even think they needed to spend time "comprehending the software"? Many people don't even know they're being ripped off. If machines are capable of selling too-expensive tickets, and there aren't enough staff to deal with travellers face-to-face to ensure that doesn't happen, then as far as I'm concerned the railway companies are defrauding people.
But people spend time researching the cost of electricity, broadband, a new washing machine and many other things - why not train fares as well?
 

LexyBoy

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
4,478
Location
North of the rivers
But there are industry requirements to sell all tickets at all times which prevent such actions.

This is clearly not the case - for example TVMs won't offer Off Peak tickets before a certain time, and don't necessarily offer all tickets at all. TVMs at Reading for example don't sell Super Off Peak Day tickets to many SWT stations despite there being direct services and these usually being the cheapest tickets.

IMO ticket machines should be held to the same standards as face-to-face sales.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top