Southern Train Crew - London Bridge

[Chrisgr31]

Does anyone know why Southern are suddenly so short of train crew at London Bridge?

On Friday evening a significant number of trains were cancelled due to shortage of train crew. Us cynical passengers assumed it was due to a Christmas party! However there were more shortages over the weekend and I see shortages are predicted for this evening too.

So what's happening and where have the crews gone?

 

[ollyrogers]

Us cynical passengers assumed it was due to a Christmas party! However there were more shortages over the weekend and I see shortages are predicted for this evening too.

Sore heads perhaps?

 

[tsr]

There's a lot of staff sickness and also driver training (generally of qualified drivers) for the new London Bridge track layouts from January 2015.

Great efforts are being put in to see that every appropriate resource is being used and yet there's still shortfall.

 

[andrewkeith5]

There's a lot of staff sickness and also driver training (generally of qualified drivers) for the new London Bridge track layouts from January 2015.

Great efforts are being put in to see that every appropriate resource is being used and yet there's still shortfall.

If only they put that much effort into bothering to properly staff ticket offices. I don't think I've seen one open to full hours in months, if not a year.

 

[Chrisgr31]

There's a lot of staff sickness and also driver training (generally of qualified drivers) for the new London Bridge track layouts from January 2015.

Great efforts are being put in to see that every appropriate resource is being used and yet there's still shortfall.

Thanks, it would help if they told us why there were such issues. I know some would still complain, bu others do know that sickness etc happens

 

[Clip]

Thanks, it would help if they told us why there were such issues. I know some would still complain, bu others do know that sickness etc happens

Why should they tell you that staff were sick - it doesn't concern you. All you need to know is why it was delayed and staff shortages is sufficient information.

 

[Antman]

Why should they tell you that staff were sick - it doesn't concern you. All you need to know is why it was delayed and staff shortages is sufficient information.

Passengers might be a bit more understanding if they are given the full story?

 

[87015]

Why should passengers believe anything when the first thing they do is "P code" a load of trains so the cancellations don't count as PPM failures, are just removed from the statistics...

 

[andrewkeith5]

Why should they tell you that staff were sick - it doesn't concern you. All you need to know is why it was delayed and staff shortages is sufficient information.

Sadly almost no delay announcements are sufficient information anymore, as the vast majority of the time they provide absolutely no information whatsoever.

The last time I was on a train delayed for a staffing issue the line was "displaced crew members", to which many people just laughed. It does concern passengers if staff are sick, because any sensible company would have appropriate measures in place to replace staff who are unable to attend work. Training is barely an excuse also - training has to be scheduled and an alternative staff member should be scheduled to cover.


People who understand the railway or work on it forget that two words can never really provide an explanation for a delayed train. I would personally much rather a proper explanation given once than the current situation of what feels like half a million announcements telling everyone a whole bunch of stuff that we already know.

 

[Fincra5]

I dislike the fact they say "Staff Sickness"... just puts the blame on every member of staff, Guards get sarcastic comments all day about it...

But the worst i've seen is "Driver sick at Late Notice"... That shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Passengers might be a bit more understanding if they are given the full story?

There is such a thing as privacy and confidentiality you know. Imagine if the details of your sickness or personal problems were revealed on request.

"I couldn't get X service from your company today and I want to know"

"Well, Antman is currently off sick with a very personal and embarrassing condition which is ______".

See how it works? I wouldn't want my company revealing details of my sickness to members of the public, just to 'give them the full story', just as you wouldn't want your personal details bandied about to all and sundry.

 

[physics34]

The London Bridge 'LL09' training is causing problems as large numbers of drivers are having to do the course (over 2 days) at once, so that everyone is done before Jan 5th.

The mentioning of 'staff sickness' to the public is wrong , and sick at late notice is even worse! I hope the union get involved in this.

 

[Antman]

There is such a thing as privacy and confidentiality you know. Imagine if the details of your sickness or personal problems were revealed on request.

"I couldn't get X service from your company today and I want to know"

"Well, Antman is currently off sick with a very personal and embarrassing condition which is ______".

See how it works? I wouldn't want my company revealing details of my sickness to members of the public, just to 'give them the full story', just as you wouldn't want your personal details bandied about to all and sundry.

Obviously I wasn't suggesting that they read out the names and details of staff who are off sick:roll:

When I was on the buses I remember on one occasion passengers moaning that they had been waiting ages because the bus in front didn't show up. When I told them that the driver had been taken ill their tone changed completely and most were more concerned about the drivers welfare.

 

[SF-02]

Why should passengers believe anything when the first thing they do is "P code" a load of trains so the cancellations don't count as PPM failures, are just removed from the statistics...

How do they get away with that then?

Are the stats that easily manipulated?

 

[Bald Rick]

How do they get away with that then?

Are the stats that easily manipulated?

It the way the system works.

Arguably, given that it is known you will have to cancel trains - it is better to cancel trains at a days notice so that passengers can at least have some notice. The alternative (as has been happening for several weeks) is that the rostering teams valiantly try to fill the gaps with spare drivers, driver managers etc, but then someone will go sick or some other reason will cause a cancellation at very short notice, ie less than an hour.

And the performance system works that if cancellations are confirmed before 2200 the previous evening, they do not count as PPM failures.

AIUI the shortage is being caused by a combination of:

1) the briefings for the next London Bridge stage (all the drivers have to be briefed in the 3 months prior to the new layout going live)
2) drivers using up their annual leave before the turn of the year
3) a lack of appetite for overtime given that so much has been available all year
4) a higher than expected rate of drivers off the footplate

... all coming together.

 

[matt_world2004]

Why the hell don't southern roster in standbys.It builds resliancy into the system.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Why should they tell you that staff were sick - it doesn't concern you. All you need to know is why it was delayed and staff shortages is sufficient information.

Staff shortages isn't a good enough explanation because the initial assumption was that all the staff had gone to a Christmas party. There are also many other reasons for staff shortages including industrial action, not enough staff actually employed etc.

One would assume that staff sickness wouldn't usually result in the number of cancellations that have been seen. However later explanations have added additional information all of which makes sense, and just helps explain why the staff shortages are occurringand that in reality nothing can be done to avoid them. It makes sense that at this time of the year there is going to be less inclination to do overtime etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why the hell don't southern roster in standbys.It builds resliancy into the system.

Presumably it adds cost as well though

 

[Tomnick]

I'm sure that, as with any other TOC, they do have rostered spare turns. Once they've been used though...! As always, just how much spare capacity should they have?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm sure that, as with any other TOC, they do have rostered spare turns. Once they've been used though...! As always, just how much spare capacity should they have?

Most franchised TOCs have progressively reduced spare turns over the last 5 years or so. There is now very little spare cover to cope with out of course running.

The more cynical commentators might connect that with the notable increase in delays per incident over the same timescale, i.e. the number delay incidents are roughly the same, but the total delays they cause are up. Although the two might be completely unconnected.

 

[Tom B]

Of course you can't force people to work overtime (unless there's a clause in their contract requiring it) but you could not approve annual leave if it was to be in a period when there's a large training course going on (taking up large numbers of staff) and you're having problems getting people to do overtime as it is! And, if there is regular overtime being worked, does that not imply that more staff ought to be employed?

 

[ComUtoR]

... And, if there is regular overtime being worked, does that not imply that more staff ought to be employed?

Overtime costs less.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Of course you can't force people to work overtime (unless there's a clause in their contract requiring it) but you could not approve annual leave if it was to be in a period when there's a large training course going on (taking up large numbers of staff) and you're having problems getting people to do overtime as it is! And, if there is regular overtime being worked, does that not imply that more staff ought to be employed?

Restricting holiday is easier said than done I suspect. Firstly you'd have to know about the requirement for training before the leave was booked, secondly there is an issue potentially with the legal requirement for staff to take x days holiday a year (I can't remember the number) and if they are approaching the end of the leave year they might need to take it and finally stopping holidays is likely to be unpopular with staff, and the reality is they are your customer facing asset.

As regards employing more staff instead of overtime these leads to the conundrum of stall liking doing overtime as it boosts their income, so again employing more people might be more expensive as mentioned above, but it might also upset the existing staff.

As a passenger I am happy with the explanation and will inform my fellow passengers tomorrow, having been lucky enough to come this morning and miss this evenings issues on the trains!

 

[Stats]

Southern have explained here: http://www.courier.co.uk/Southern-b...elled-trains/story-25466405-detail/story.html. Nothing new that hasn't already been said above.

"This is a massive programme where we are training 26 drivers a day and it is planned to be completed by Christmas. We were coping well with this until very recently when a higher than usual level of sickness resulted in some shortages of drivers, although we did take some drivers off the training to help with cover.

Read more: http://www.courier.co.uk/Southern-b...tory-25466405-detail/story.html#ixzz3LQwgfZf7
Follow us: @KSCourier on Twitter | kentandsussexcourier on Facebook

 

[infobleep]

Where I work your holiday starts the day you join for a year. So if you join in August, your holiday runs to next August. That helps deal with everyone using up holiday at the same time.

I think most companies just do December to December.

 

[pembroke]

A few points from an ex BA pilot. Why is the UK operating and training regime of rail transport so archaic? As an example, I understand from driver friends that each individual route is "known", in my world "flown" before a driver is cleared to operate on that route. Why two days training to familiarise with a new platform layout at London Bridge? Re. holiday rosters and stand by cover, can you imagine an airline failing to operate a service due crew shortage! It does happen but with a delay to allow stand by crew to be called out. What surprised me most was how difficult it was to find an intelligent rail forum and why we, the public are so compliant in this shambles. The answer is driverless trains asap.

 

[Skoodle]

It goes out much further than just a platform layout. New signals are being installed and moved, far away from London Bridge. New layouts on the approach to London Bridge and with Three Bridges taking over the signalling soon, all the signals will be newly numbered. I drive for London Overground and it affects us too, as all the signals down to Anerley will be renamed.

Imagine if all the STAR and holds for LHR were to change. You need to know exactly every single combination from memory with no charts to look at before you can fly in to Heathrow. It's not the same as location of gates changing at T5.

 

[Bald Rick]

Imagine if all the STAR and holds for LHR were to change. You need to know exactly every single combination from memory with no charts to look at before you can fly in to Heathrow. It's not the same as location of gates changing at T5.

Touché.

Also if all the ATC radio frequencies changed concurrently.

 

[Chrisgr31]

There's the added complication that with a plane if it goes wrong you can always "swerve" to avoid whatever is in front. Swerving trains isn't possible you're going to hit what ever is in front!

 

[infobleep]

So how do train drivers remember the new changes and try Nd if ire the previous ones. Do you need to be the sort of person who has a photographic memory?

 

[Chrisgr31]

I am not a train driver however I guess thats why its called route familiarisation. Presumably its a bit like being a car driver in that you know certain roads, and those roads you drive along regularly you know where the sharp corners are, where there might be ice or mud on the road, where deer cross etc. On roads you know less well you probably drive more cautiously because you are unsure of where the hazards are, and on roads you have never driven on you are even more cautious.

However car drivers have the added benefit of mark one eyeball and should be driving at a speed which means if something unexpected happens (sharp corner etc) you can slow or stop.

Train drivers rely on the signals and if they say its safe they assume it is, and whilst they are alert for a hazard the train is not going to stop on a sixpence.

My guess is that from 5th January the Southern drivers will be driving more cautiously on the drive in to London Bridge into they have got used to the locations of the signals etc. Thats not of course to say that they won't pay attention afterwards, but they'll have more trepidation on their first few journeys in.