• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Southern Trains major disruption due to conductor rail problem near Clapham Jn 30/04

Status
Not open for further replies.

MP33

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2011
Messages
414
Also in the news. It was claimed that the emergency services were willing for the passengers to be disembarked, but Network Senior Management stopped them and left the passengers to suffer more.

After yet another major mess up a few Network Rail senior managers should be subject to performance management procedures.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

GodAtum

On Moderation
Joined
11 Dec 2009
Messages
2,637
Wisely I choose. Got to Redhill on time and jumped on the 1757 which left at 1809 (with 4 cars) without the rest of the train. I asume the rest of the carriages caught up eventually!
 

broadgage

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2012
Messages
1,094
Location
Somerset
On the news just now: passengers held on trains for 5 HOURS?

A world class railway? If it's anything near the truth, it's an absolute disgrace.

I was not involved in todays fiasco, but have been caught up in previous broadly similar incidents.
The first priority of the BTP and the train operators seems to be to contain people on the trains for as long as possible. When some eventually escape then blame the delays on "trespass incidents"

Of course delays occurred back in the good old days, but the situation is far worse these days.
In the old days, most passengers had seats, the windows opened, the toilets could be used, the emergency lighting worked for hours, and in hot weather it was common practice to open the doors on the side away from other traffic.
A prolonged delay was most inconvenient but not really that unpleasant and certainly not dangerous.

These days it is far worse, new shorter trains that are crush loaded with hundreds standing, no working toilets, sealed doors and windows without ventilation, and emergency lighting for a few minutes only.
To be stuck in such conditions for hours is an EMERGENCY not just another delay.

Whilst another review will no doubt be promised after today, nothing seems to have been learnt from all the previous reviews.

Sooner or later I predict multiple loss of life from heat stress etc. when a large scale breakdown occurs in the evening rush hour in hot weather.
 

MP33

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2011
Messages
414
It appears to me that years ago Railway management could use their initiative. Whether or not the management of today are able to, they seem to have a set plan A and no plan B or no way of amending plan A.
 

bengley

Established Member
Joined
18 May 2008
Messages
1,844
I was on the 0551 from Polegate this morning and with connections arrived at VIC on time. Must have been pretty lucky!

I arrived at work and not long after starting at 0800 we got word that the NR station at Victoria was screwed.

This made for an extremely light AM peak at Victoria Underground!

On the way home I opted to go via Orpington / Tonbridge / St Leonards / Eastbourne

I think I made the right choice.
 

broadgage

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2012
Messages
1,094
Location
Somerset
That cannot be right, surely?

I remember many London suburban services being downgraded from 8 car slam door units to a mixture of 4 car and 6 car networkers, the Catford loop line was one of many affected. At the time I complained about the reduction in train length but was told that the new shorter trains had a similar capacity to the old ones as they "had more standing room"
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,658
Interesting report. So 6 trains need repairs and 5 hour delays on one train.

If the procedure was followed correctly as Southern say it was and Network Rail say there may be lessons which could be learnt, then that would suggest the procedure itself possibly needs amending so that next time they follow a better procedure.

Nothing wrong with carrying out lessons learned exercises.

If the emergency services really did want to evacuate sooner, may be they were not following the procedure correctly. Or perhaps the procedure used by network rail and the tail companies isn't the same as the procedure in place with the emergency services. After all they have different roles in these situations.

I wonder what people did for loos in those 5 hours. I know I might have an issue if I didn't have access to a working loo for 5 hours.
 

LAX54

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2008
Messages
3,759
Were you able to open the windows back then? It seems that there is no air conditioning on the stranded trains, the heat and poor air quality is bound to cause tempers to rise.

Indeed we could, it was VEP's and CEP's :) Actually it was Summer 1973, not 72, that was the year I joined as Box Boy at Arundel Junction
 
Last edited:

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
If it has been an incident in an overhead area would they have been able to isolate just the affected track(s) (provided it's not fouling stuff) or would it still mean the whole area being isolated?
 

MP33

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2011
Messages
414
With all these recent disasters I am sure that I am seeing less senior rail staff on my train. Especially as I have found out what a number of the other 1st class passengers jobs are. Only yesterday and today I found out that two men are stockbrokers/dealers and one works in commercial property.

The railway managers must be delayed in crisis meetings at Milton Keynes/Norwich.

If they held a senior role with my employer, they would have gone by now and quickly.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,087
@GodAtum

In reverse, I got the number 50 bus from outside the Whitgift Centre to Clapham Common. There may be quicker ways, but it got me there in the end.

Get from Clapham Junction to Brixton by 35,37 or 345 buses, then 109 or 250 bus- or risk staying on the 37 to HerneHill and hope for a Thameslink through from Elephant?
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
9,289
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
Now going slightly off topic here but... I wonder what would have happened had Network Rail actually kept and utilised the 57/3s for Thunderbird duties as originally planned? Meanwhile the likes of 305 are currently, if what somewhat ironically dragging electrostars around the country for DRS...
 

Bishopstone

Established Member
Joined
24 Jun 2010
Messages
1,478
Location
Seaford
With all these recent disasters I am sure that I am seeing less senior rail staff on my train. Especially as I have found out what a number of the other 1st class passengers jobs are. Only yesterday and today I found out that two men are stockbrokers/dealers and one works in commercial property.

The railway managers must be delayed in crisis meetings at Milton Keynes/Norwich.

If they held a senior role with my employer, they would have gone by now and quickly.

The really senior people are normally 'on holiday' when calamity strikes.

When the Bank of England payment settlement systems crashed last year, the middle management/techies couldn't reach any of the top half dozen honchos, because they were all 'on holiday' or overseas on business, which probably amounts to much the same thing.

I haven't seen the news today owing to being stuck on trains, but have Messrs Carne and Scorey put in any media appearances, or have they already jetted off for the Bank Holiday?
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,087
Also in the news. It was claimed that the emergency services were willing for the passengers to be disembarked, but Network Senior Management stopped them and left the passengers to suffer more.

After yet another major mess up a few Network Rail senior managers should be subject to performance management procedures.

There could well be cause for prosecution for 'unlawful detention' if any passenger insisted on disembarkment and were prevented by railway staff, given that the juice was off, the emergency services were in attendance and able to assist and, in the latter's view, there were no safety issues preventing such action. I was due to be on the Eurostar train that expired a mile or two from Waterloo Int some years ago where passengers were left to stew overnight (and it was High Summer) and no amount of compensation would have stopped me from pursuing the company to establish the salient details as to why passengers were effectively imprisoned.
 

contrex

Member
Joined
19 May 2009
Messages
878
Location
St Werburghs, Bristol
They'd probably just open the doors and detrain themselves, absent any kind of door locking.
In the 70s I remember reading about a BR manager running frantically along the platform at Balham to get to a phone to stop the job and the juice because hundreds of commuters had climbed down from trains while adjacent lines were still running. It used to happen quite often when an incident like this occurred. In fact this happened in 2013 at London Bridge when people forced the doors on a number of trains to walk back to the station and the juice had to be turned off.
 

MP33

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2011
Messages
414
Was there an incident due to signal failure that went on for hours because it was said that it was too dangerous to disembark. Could they have not driven to just before the next level or occupation crossing and the passengers could just have walked a few steps to a footpath?

Also did not London Underground some years ago announce that in a crisis no one in management was up to managing the situation. Plan B was hopefully a passenger who is one of those who is good at organising and not panicking will put themselves in charge. I believe that was after a large number of people were trapped underground and a number of managers all thought that they were in charge.
 

Via Bank

Member
Joined
28 Mar 2010
Messages
672
Location
London
One would have hoped that lessons would have been learned from the incidents at Woking, London Bridge and others where passengers self-evacuated because they were trapped (usually for some hours) in an airless train, often without light, and fed up.

But apparently not.

What an embarrassment.
 

Chrisgr31

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
1,675
It appears to me that years ago Railway management could use their initiative. Whether or not the management of today are able to, they seem to have a set plan A and no plan B or no way of amending plan A.

Seem to have a set plan A? Not sure they have any plan at all!
 

heart-of-wessex

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2005
Messages
3,013
Location
Trowbridge
Did 2F06 run non stop from Victoria to Bridge via Wandsworth Road and Peckham? Noticed on RTT there is 'no report' between Battersea Pier and London Bridge (and made up 30 minutes of delay)
 

theageofthetra

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2012
Messages
3,504
I agree with what has been said previously about 5 hours being ridiculous. Someone is going to die of heatstroke one day as a result of the idiotic arrangement of having insufficient windows which can be opened in an emergency. This incident did not happen in some remote corner of the world, 2 hours plus to detrain or rescue is TOTALLY unacceptable.

Has anyone confirmed if all windows were opened by the guard in this case? There are similarites in the mismanagement of this incident to the way motorways are closed in the UK for hours after an accident (even if there are no serious injuries) -the priority in every other country I have driven is to clear the wreckage ASAP and keep traffic moving at all costs. I hope that if there is any truth in emergency services giving permission to detrain and NR holding back someones head will roll.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,658
I agree with what has been said previously about 5 hours being ridiculous. Someone is going to die of heatstroke one day as a result of the idiotic arrangement of having insufficient windows which can be opened in an emergency. This incident did not happen in some remote corner of the world, 2 hours plus to detrain or rescue is TOTALLY unacceptable.

Has anyone confirmed if all windows were opened by the guard in this case? There are similarites in the mismanagement of this incident to the way motorways are closed in the UK for hours after an accident (even if there are no serious injuries) -the priority in every other country I have driven is to clear the wreckage ASAP and keep traffic moving at all costs. I hope that if there is any truth in emergency services giving permission to detrain and NR holding back someones head will roll.
If they followed the procedure correctly as Southern claim, why do heads need to roll? Perhaps if heads do need to roll then it's the people who drew up the procedure, which they followed correctly, who need to go. Or it may be the people who made changes to a drawn up procedure who need to go if the original people working on it suggested a shorter time frame.

Clearly I've not seen the procedure itself, just heard Southern say it was followed correctly.
 

PhilipW

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2008
Messages
756
Location
Fareham, Hants
If they followed the procedure correctly as Southern claim, why do heads need to roll? Perhaps if heads do need to roll then it's the people who drew up the procedure, which they followed correctly, who need to go. Or it may be the people who made changes to a drawn up procedure who need to go if the original people working on it suggested a shorter time frame.

Clearly I've not seen the procedure itself, just heard Southern say it was followed correctly.

I think you are going to struggle trying to explain to the general public that being stuck on a train for 4 to 5 hours is 'correct procedure'.
 
Last edited:

Minstral25

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
1,776
Location
Surrey
Southern have just put up a list of cancellations to train services this morning on their website. Shame they couldn't manage that before commuters went to catch the trains.

A rumour is circulating that 48 carriages were damaged yesterday. Can someone who understands better than me explain how that many were damaged? How so many went past the fault getting damaged without stopping and blocking the line as the train was broken?

Of course assuming the rumour is true
 

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
9,596
Southern have just put up a list of cancellations to train services this morning on their website. Shame they couldn't manage that before commuters went to catch the trains.

A rumour is circulating that 48 carriages were damaged yesterday. Can someone who understands better than me explain how that many were damaged? How so many went past the fault getting damaged without stopping and blocking the line as the train was broken?

Of course assuming the rumour is true

This a just a guess but maybe the damage to the 3rd rail was at the 'end' as it was switching sides. Therefore when a 12 car 377 passed over and lost all its shoes on one side it wouldn't be noticed until the 3rd rail was on that same side again, which may have been a while away, allowing other trains to run over it as well.

48 carriages is only 4x12 377 after all and in the morning peak trains will be fairly close together
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
Southern have just put up a list of cancellations to train services this morning on their website. Shame they couldn't manage that before commuters went to catch the trains.

A rumour is circulating that 48 carriages were damaged yesterday. Can someone who understands better than me explain how that many were damaged? How so many went past the fault getting damaged without stopping and blocking the line as the train was broken?

Of course assuming the rumour is true

At a guess, as the conductor rail began to shift it may have knocked lumps out of passing trains' shoegear, though perhaps not sufficiently to render the gear completely unserviceable.
 

GodAtum

On Moderation
Joined
11 Dec 2009
Messages
2,637
The 0739 from ECR was oddly formed of 9 carriages this morning. The first 4 where a standard 377 but the last 5 where the new ones with magically disappering 1st class sections :(
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top