Southern Trains major disruption due to conductor rail problem near Clapham Jn 30/04

[sarahj]

I know a few of you travel first class, just to let you know that there was no first class at all on southern last night from about 16.15 until end of service, so you know for added delay repay.

It was 4 units with ripped off shoes. From what a driver told me they were dumped for a while in the sussex side of victoria which was then closed off.

A fun night, managed to work a train from Three Bridges to London Bridge, (could not get to Horsham to pick it up, so it ran empties to TBD), and we arrived only 3 mins late. Best run ever into London Bridge. Then waited to work the 16.57 to Littlehampton, which was cancelled at 16.53, no driver and no stock, backed up another conductor on a train to Gatwick, then managed to catch a TL back to Brighton. Journey time LBG to BTN, 2.20. As it was now 19.30 and there was no way I could even get close to littlehampton to work the 18.53 back. Due in Brighton 19.48, so sat round, then went home as it was my home time.

Its not often we get a Code Black.

 

[jopsuk]

The 0739 from ECR was oddly formed of 9 carriages this morning. The first 4 where a standard 377 but the last 6 where the new ones with magically disappering 1st class sections

last 5 maybe?

 

[talltim]

The 0739 from ECR was oddly formed of 9 carriages this morning. The first 4 where a standard 377 but the last 5 where the new ones with magically disappering 1st class sections

last 5 maybe?

Maybe the 6th coach had the magically disappearing 1st class?

Was it just shoe gear ripped off or did the conductor rail damage other underframe equipment on the centre cars of the units?

 

[Deepgreen]

It was 4 units with ripped off shoes. From what a driver told me they were dumped for a while in the sussex side of victoria which was then closed off.

Yes, I noticed one section in platform 17 at Victoria occupied by what was described as "SHOE" on Open Train Times!

 

[GodAtum]

Funny article from the http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/so-we-meet-again-southern-tells-commuters-2015050197927

SOUTHERN trains has admitted its passengers are ‘resilient *******s’ who do not know when they are beaten.

Thousands of commuters shrugged off yesterday’s vicious pummeling by the train company and turned up at their local stations this morning, bloodied but unbowed, hoping to somehow get to work.

Southern chief executive, Charles Augustus Milverton, said: “So we meet again.

“I have to hand it to you, you’ve got guts. There are even times when I wonder what it would be like if we were on the same side.

“But then I remember how sentimental you are about each other. Your humanity is your weakness.”

Milverton added: “You do know you can’t win. Even if you all join together I will still defeat you because I control the trains and the trains are life.

“All I have to do is press this shiny red button and your world falls apart.

“But let’s play our game for a little longer, shall we? I do find it rather stimulating.”

 

[Deepgreen]

Has it been established yet how the conductor rail became dislodged - was it a train that hit it first or was it already out of place when the first train hit it?

 

[tsr]

last 5 maybe?

3-coach 377/3 units only have First Class at one end. A 6-coach formation will be 2x 377/3s.

 

[Busaholic]

Funny article from the http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/so-we-meet-again-southern-tells-commuters-2015050197927

All grist to TfL's mill, of course : irrelevant if the trains concerned originated in Sussex or wherever, the incident occurred in Inner London and will have involved London commuters too.

 

[tsr]

Southern have just put up a list of cancellations to train services this morning on their website. Shame they couldn't manage that before commuters went to catch the trains.

A rumour is circulating that 48 carriages were damaged yesterday. Can someone who understands better than me explain how that many were damaged? How so many went past the fault getting damaged without stopping and blocking the line as the train was broken?

Of course assuming the rumour is true

This a just a guess but maybe the damage to the 3rd rail was at the 'end' as it was switching sides. Therefore when a 12 car 377 passed over and lost all its shoes on one side it wouldn't be noticed until the 3rd rail was on that same side again, which may have been a while away, allowing other trains to run over it as well.

48 carriages is only 4x12 377 after all and in the morning peak trains will be fairly close together

Yes, 48 coaches were damaged, which means that 12 units are OOU. Some managed to get further than others, but remember that longer 377 formations don't necessarily need all motors working at what you might roughly call "full power", so it's possible to limp along with some electrical damage before either the driver, the train or someone else calls it a day.

 

[infobleep]

I think you are going to struggle trying to explain to the general public that being stuck on a train for 4 to 5 hours is 'correct procedure'.

I don't need to. That's Southern's job.

 

[Antman]

I don't need to. That's Southern's job.

Well clearly it is totally unacceptable especially in London, had the incident happened in a remote inaccessible location it might have been slightly different, hopefully lessons will have been learned and we won't have to wait until there are fatalities?

 

[JonathanH]

The 0739 from ECR was oddly formed of 9 carriages this morning. The first 4 where a standard 377 but the last 5 where the new ones with magically disappering 1st class sections

I think that 377604 had a trip to Littlehampton last night from a sighting at Redhill, your message and a message on ukmodernemu that it worked the 0807 to Brighton.

After the 2132 Horsham to London Bridge was terminated at Redhill, it seems to have worked empty to Three Bridges, then picked up the last Arun Valley train to Chichester which started at Three Bridges, into Littlehampton for the night then the first train to Victoria from Portsmouth this morning.

 

[Taunton]

Well clearly it is totally unacceptable especially in London, had the incident happened in a remote inaccessible location it might have been slightly different, hopefully lessons will have been learned and we won't have to wait until there are fatalities?

What, you mean like the "lessons learned" at Kentish Town, and indeed at innumerable other recent incidents where the management seem incapable of organising prompt handling of things like this, or even understanding what it's like to be stranded in a modern "immaculately sealed" train.

Just what is the plan for an electric train coming to a stand on the line with a failure, which can't be recovered by the train behind pushing it. There are numerous events that fall into this category - power supply failure, incompatible couplings, jammed brakes, etc. Where was the nearest recovery diesel loco? Doncaster?

 

[W230]

If it has been an incident in an overhead area would they have been able to isolate just the affected track(s) (provided it's not fouling stuff) or would it still mean the whole area being isolated?

Generally pairs of lines (or all lines) end up tied together with the OLE equipment. So if the wires come down often damage is done to the whole width of the installations (as happened across all 4 lines at Hendon last year).

TBH this whole incident is pretty poor. I can understand the reasons for being delayed so long if remote/rural but not in inner London. As a driver I would be dismayed to keep my passengers on the train for that long (as i'm sure the Southern driver was) and would be wanting to walk them anywhere to get away from it! In fact in many ways, once people start to detrain your options become limited anyway so the situation has to actually progress...

 

[Deepgreen]

Generally pairs of lines (or all lines) end up tied together with the OLE equipment. So if the wires come down often damage is done to the whole width of the installations (as happened across all 4 lines at Hendon last year).

TBH this whole incident is pretty poor. I can understand the reasons for being delayed so long if remote/rural but not in inner London. As a driver I would be dismayed to keep my passengers on the train for that long (as i'm sure the Southern driver was) and would be wanting to walk them anywhere to get away from it! In fact in many ways, once people start to detrain your options become limited anyway so the situation has to actually progress...

Network Rail has spent a lot over the last few years in providing evacuation routes (steps) at a large number of bridges in the London area - indeed, the evacuation yesterday used one or more of these, so it is even more perplexing that it took so long. Passengers did not have to be walked anything like as far as they would have done previously to get off the railway and the current was, by definition, off anyway.

 

[Swaffrail]

Point is that if it had been dogs kept locked up in a train with no windows open or ventilation then Southern/Network Rail would have been arrested & charged. Trouble is both the railways and the airline industry won't care a damm about passengers in these types of situations until somebody dies and the regulatory bodies force them to act in a quicker and more humane fashion.

 

[LBSCR Times]

....and the current was, by definition, off anyway.

The traction current was still alive on the Down Slow, and any emergency services going on to the track, then the traction current has to be isolated, not only for that section but also abutting sections.

Also, where do you get buses for about 900 passengers from....?
And that was just one train.
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Point is that if it had been dogs kept locked up in a train with no windows open or ventilation then Southern/Network Rail would have been arrested & charged. Trouble is both the railways and the airline industry won't care a damm about passengers in these types of situations until somebody dies and the regulatory bodies force them to act in a quicker and more humane fashion.

Your talking total crap.
Safety is paramount in evacuating.

 

[Taunton]

Safety is paramount in evacuating.

Normal weasel words following a management cockup, attitude is that if you play the "safety" card that will shut the critics up.

 

[LAX54]

Having read the log, it was always going to be a difficult exercise, there were so many trains ever damaged or just stranded, you can't have a train load of passengers wandering around, so it has to be done train by train, and there are simply not enough NR staff, Emergency Service Staff, Buses etc to cipe with it all. Downside of a modern railway! slam door stock with lots of doors would all ahve had windows that open, even if they ahd CDL ! but then you would get the idiots climbing out of the windows !

It seems they were also using ED's to rescue stuck trains, it all takes staff and time.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Well clearly it is totally unacceptable especially in London, had the incident happened in a remote inaccessible location it might have been slightly different, hopefully lessons will have been learned and we won't have to wait until there are fatalities?

Lessons are never learned. Passengers have been stranded on trains for hours before and they'll get stranded again following a problem until someone on the bit of the railway concerned has the cojones to actually make a decision instead of leaving people cooped up on a train with no ventilation for several hours. With the traction current discharged and everything at a stand there was no good reason not to get everyone who was able off the trains and walk them either towards or back to the nearest station. It really was fortunate that the day was not a really hot summer's day.

 

[DelayRepay]

It seems they were also using ED's to rescue stuck trains, it all takes staff and time.

What is an ED?

I appreciate there are not huge numbers of staff on hand at TOCs and Network Rail to go out and deal with incidents like this. I appreciate buses are hard to source.

But to leave people on a crowded, hot train for five hours with no open windows, no air conditioning, no working toilets and no food or drink is dangerous and completely unacceptable. These kind of incidents keep happening and we keep being promised lessons will be learned, plans will be improved and investment will be made. However the next time an incident happens we will see the same inadequate response.

 

[Sacro]

What is an ED?

Class 73 (Electro-Diesel)

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Finest little loco ever built.

 

[gtr driver]

Well you lot appear to have all the answers…perhaps you should write to Southern to tell them just how to respond. From experience I can tell you that the first train affected would not necessarily know the shoes were off. Only when a train loses all power will it be known that something major has happened. Then it’s line blocks, trackside inspections, telling the relevant parties, assessing the scope of the situation, agreeing a decision, getting all the relevant staff of several different organisations together, briefing them, getting them on site, blocking all the lines and turning off the power, then marshalling hundreds of people out of trains without a platform into an environment that is not designed for them without slips or trips, then find space for them all somewhere because no platform or concourse is designed to cope with them all arriving at once like that. Incidentally all the windows that could be opened were; and the chances of air con failures on this scale are fairly slim anyway. After all that you have a timetable in tatters, a chunk of your stock unavailable, crowds building everywhere, lines and platforms blocked by failed trains and train crew displaced and unable to continue because they’ve run out of hours. Furthermore the ripples of this will run for several days. But of course all that is easy to organise and should have been done within half an hour, tops.

 

[EM2]

My best mate was stuck for five hours. I asked him how bad it got.
'It was a bit warm, so I took my jacket and tie off.'
That was it.

 

[Antman]

My best mate was stuck for five hours. I asked him how bad it got.
'It was a bit warm, so I took my jacket and tie off.'
That was it.

Didn't he need to be somewhere or was he just out on a little jolly?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Also, where do you get buses for about 900 passengers from....?
And that was just one train.
.

Well some of the trains were very near Clapham Junction, they were also in London. The chances are that once off the train many passengers would have set off on foot, to find London Bus routes, taxis, Clapham Junction train station and SWT trains etc.

 

[Antman]

Normal weasel words following a management cockup, attitude is that if you play the "safety" card that will shut the critics up.

I couldn't agree more, play the 'safety card' and nobody can argue..........never mind the safety of the poor sods trapped inside trains for hours!

 

[infobleep]

Network Rail has spent a lot over the last few years in providing evacuation routes (steps) at a large number of bridges in the London area - indeed, the evacuation yesterday used one or more of these, so it is even more perplexing that it took so long. Passengers did not have to be walked anything like as far as they would have done previously to get off the railway and the current was, by definition, off anyway.

It probably took so long because they were following the correct procedure. These days it's probably about signing off documents and following them. If the document says it must be dealt with at this time or in particular way people will do it.

After all would you want to do something that goes against company policy? It might be your job on the line if something then happened that went wrong.

If it goes wrong and you've followed company procedure there is less chance of you getting told off or worse, disciplinary proceedings.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Normal weasel words following a management cockup, attitude is that if you play the "safety" card that will shut the critics up.

Until there is an accident and the self-same people who makes these comments are the first to want action.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It probably took so long because they were following the correct procedure. These days it's probably about signing off documents and following them. If the document says it must be dealt with at this time or in particular way people will do it.

After all would you want to do something that goes against company policy? It might be your job on the line if something then happened that went wrong.

If it goes wrong and you've followed company procedure there is less chance of you getting told off or worse, disciplinary proceedings.

Correct, and if you don't follow company policy then it will be you who will end up in the dock, rather than the Directors, if something goes wrong.