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Southwestern depot and stabling alterations

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pompeyfan

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I've recently heard that Fratton TCD will be receiving extra roads to stable stock where the short lived container depot was and that the tracks that are currently there will now be powered by a conductor rail.

This will be necessary because of the cascades made possible by the introduction of the 707s, i was wondering if anyone else had heard similar or seen plans etc.
 
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swt_passenger

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Seems likely and I doubt Fratton is the only location either. They have to stable an extra 150 cars somehow, I'd expect the internally cascaded 450s will end up all over the place, such as filling all terminal platforms overnight, e.g. at Portsmouth Harbour and Portsmouth & Southsea LL.

There doesn't seem to be anything publicly available about overall stabling changes though.
 

Helvellyn

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There's been at least one post about all the SWT siding extensions (possibly in the 707 thread or Waterloo remodelling). I think Fratton gets three extra roads for Desiro stock, two of which will have CET facilities. Farnham gets an extra road. Basingstoke North Yard becomes two roads with CET facilities. Woking Up Yard is getting a number of carriage sidings with CET facilities.
 

swt_passenger

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There's been at least one post about all the SWT siding extensions (possibly in the 707 thread or Waterloo remodelling). I think Fratton gets three extra roads for Desiro stock, two of which will have CET facilities. Farnham gets an extra road. Basingstoke North Yard becomes two roads with CET facilities. Woking Up Yard is getting a number of carriage sidings with CET facilities.

You have a good memory! I did some searching of the site via Google, and this came up in the 458/5 thread:

By January 2018, there will be approximately 250 extra vehicles in service as a result of the 707, 458/5 and 456 projects. To cater for these extra vehicles, extra sidings and maintenance facilities are being constructed in Woking, Basingstoke, Farnham and Fratton.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2100305&postcount=2110

(It was info contained within that SWT briefing that was only online for a very short time before being re-issued in a watered down version, fortunately someone found a cached version.)

Presumably somewhere like Fratton's, Woking's, or Basingstoke's extra roads will all be long enough for a few units each, typically 3 x 450s? Also, isn't there some work going on at Clapham Junction and Staines as well - or is that already complete?
 
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pompeyfan

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Ah very interesting. Can someone just remind me where Basingstoke north is? Is it on the UP side country end of the station? Or down side London end?

The other thing about Fratton is that they'll have to either do some massive remodelling or clear the head shunt that runs parallel to the down at Fratton East Jnc, otherwise they'll have to do shunt moves on the mainline.
 
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swt_passenger

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According to the sectional appendix, Basingstoke up branch sidings (North Yard) are accessed off the Reading lines, it is where NR store tampers etc.

At the London end of Basingstoke on the main lines the up sidings are named Barton Mill Carriage Sidings, and the down side 'Long Valley Sidings'; however SWT refer to the latter as 'Down East End Siding'.

At the country end they are just down sidings and up sidings in the sectional appendix. The former is referred to by SWT as 'Basingstoke Down Yard', and the latter was electrified a couple of years ago, but I've never seen it used by SWT, who call it 'Basingstoke Up Siding West'. Perhaps it sees trains overnight?

Unfortunately that doesn't actually answer where they will expand at Basingstoke, but there are loads of possibilities there...

At Fratton, wouldn't it be possible to just electrify various sidings and loops parallel to the down line and the fuelling point, and enter and exit to the north? They could theoretically bring some more early trains into service at the likes of Hilsea, Cosham or Havant, they don't necessarily have to run south to enter service.

Such a widespread increase in stabling facilities is likely to force a number of changes into early and late services, or increase ECS mileage considerably.
 
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najaB

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Such a widespread increase in stabling facilities is likely to force a number of changes into early and late services, or increase ECS mileage considerably.
I would have thought the point of increasing stabling locations is to *reduce* ECS movements.
 

fgwrich

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According to the sectional appendix, Basingstoke up branch sidings (North Yard) are accessed off the Reading lines, it is where NR store tampers etc.

At the London end of Basingstoke on the main lines the up sidings are named Barton Mill Carriage Sidings, and the down side 'Long Valley Sidings'; however SWT refer to the latter as 'Down East End Siding'.

At the country end they are just down sidings and up sidings in the sectional appendix. The former is referred to by SWT as 'Basingstoke Down Yard', and the latter was electrified a couple of years ago, but I've never seen it used by SWT, who call it 'Basingstoke Up Siding West'. Perhaps it sees trains overnight?

Unfortunately that doesn't actually answer where they will expand at Basingstoke, but there are loads of possibilities there...

At Fratton, wouldn't it be possible to just electrify various sidings and loops parallel to the down line and the fuelling point, and enter and exit to the north? They could theoretically bring some more early trains into service at the likes of Hilsea, Cosham or Havant, they don't necessarily have to run south to enter service.

Such a widespread increase in stabling facilities is likely to force a number of changes into early and late services, or increase ECS mileage considerably.

Thanks for writing that, I was looking and trying to work out where these sidings actually were. I can't really see North Yard ever becoming Desiro stabling, I could see the former west sidings on the down side of the station being restored back to depot use, there should be enough space in there for at least 3 roads if not 4, and talk of restoring the former Alton bay back into use - possibly as a headshunt, or even for terminating trains from the west.
 

swt_passenger

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I would have thought the point of increasing stabling locations is to *reduce* ECS movements.

But if the increased trains (in the wider outer area) are mainly for strengthening and have to run the same or similar timetable, albeit in longer formations, then you'd prefer to only use the same stabling locations as now. The point about somewhere like Woking yard is that it is an additional location - it allows more trains to enter or leave service at Woking, but that may not be what the current timetable needs. They may have to leave Woking and enter service at Guildford for instance.

As another way of looking at it, they may wish to have longer trains running from Southampton towards Waterloo, but Southampton hasn't yet been mentioned. So the extra stock for that would have to arrive from somewhere else.
 

TEW

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At the country end they are just down sidings and up sidings in the sectional appendix. The former is referred to by SWT as 'Basingstoke Down Yard', and the latter was electrified a couple of years ago, but I've never seen it used by SWT, who call it 'Basingstoke Up Siding West'. Perhaps it sees trains overnight?

I believe the one you are referring to came into use in either December 2015, or May 2016. A 12-car 450 is booked to stable in it overnight.
 

swt_passenger

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I believe the one you are referring to came into use in either December 2015, or May 2016. A 12-car 450 is booked to stable in it overnight.

I think I've just found it in realtimetrains. Only 2 ECS moves, an arrival from Barton Mill CS, 5L61 at 2207, and a departure to Woking, 5F86 at 0627. Presumably the units have to come along after servicing at Barton Mill.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/XBZ/2016/08/30/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Going back to fgwrich's earlier point about names, RTT use 'Basingstoke West Yard' for this, another different name for the same place...
So that's:
Sectional appendix - 'Up Sidings'
SWT CWNs - 'Basingstoke Up Siding West'
RTT - 'Basingstoke West Yard'

It's surprising people don't get lost.
 
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Helvellyn

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Oops, typo on my part. It is Basingstoke Down Yard that gets two sidings and CET facilities. It currently has disconnected track still in place and one siding in use. I bet the residents of the adjacent flats will be thrilled!

I think the Up Yard, which is the one siding that was brought back into use recently will also see more use. Now the office building next to that has just been converted into flats too. Hope no complaints about train noise!

Basingstoke is quite unusual when you look at it - it is effectively going to have four distinct multiple unit facilities all linked to the station: -

  • Barton Mill - On Up side, London side of the station.
    • Four 12-car electrified sidings with CET facilities.
    • One electrified siding under the old box (takes a 5-car 444 I think).
  • Long Valley - On the Down side, London side of the station.
    • One 12-car electrified siding next to the old goods platform.
    • One non-electrified platform but have never seen it used.
  • Down Yard - On the Down side, Country side of the station.
    • One 12-car electrified siding.
    • A current disused siding to be brought back into use and CET facilities added.
  • Up Yard - On the Up side, Country side of the station.
    • One 12-car electrified siding.
Interestingly, at Barton Mill you can clearly see that at least two of the roads were much longer, extending all the way to where the ring road crosses the railway. Between this and the seemingly unused siding in Long Valley, I wonder why these weren't considered for use rather then the Up/Down Yard sites? Does seem odd to have facilities spread across four sites, albeit in close proximity.

Wonder if it would have been more efficient to consider building a 8-10 road depot facility at Micheldever on the site of the old oil terminal?
 

swt_passenger

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Ah good, so we now have four names for the siding on the up side west of the station?

That wasn't intended as a criticism, by the way. It just strikes me as odd that all these different names are in use for different organisation's purposes. I expect the thing that prevents misrouting is the different three character 'depot X codes' for each of the four locations as can be seen in RTT's location selector box:

Basingstoke [BSK]
Basingstoke Barton Mill E
Basingstoke Dn E End Sdg [XDF]
Basingstoke Bartn Ml C.S.D [XBS]
Basingstoke Down Yard [XBT]
Basingstoke East Bay
Basingstoke North Yard
Basingstoke West Yard [XBZ]
 
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Matt Taylor

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In Portsmouth the harbour station has a 5 car and two 12 cars berthed each night so there's room for another 5 car and an 8 car, Southsea has a 12 car, a 4 car and a 5 car so it's full each night. The Down Carriage Sidings are full with a pair of 12 cars and an 8 car.

At Fratton I believe there's an issue with the ownership of the land adjacent to the former freight siding which needs to be resolved before any new sidings can be added in that area.
 

Bigfoot

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Also, isn't there some work going on at Clapham Junction and Staines as well - or is that already complete?

Clapham has an extra road in use now and work currently on going to extend more.
Staines is finished.
Strawberry Hill is currently also undergoing works to extend some roads.
 

Lockwood

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What if time..
What if the old sidings were still there? Could they be used for passenger stock stabling? How much work to do it?
 

mikestone1952

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archive.nr.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/1%20current%20consultations/01-08-2017%20-%20first%20mtr%20south%20west%20trains%20-%20section%2017%20-%20closes%20tuesday%2029th%20august%202017/passenger-access-application-form-p%20fmswt%20dec18%20v2.pdf
;
refers to additional sidings at various locations.
 

swt_passenger

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this link ought to work:

http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse docu...-access-application-form-p fmswt dec18 v2.pdf

I've pulled out the stabling changes here, some are already complete:

Stabling
o Fratton – additional stabling (3 x 12-car roads) – due by March 2019;

o Basingstoke – additional stabling (1 x 24-car road) – due by March 2019;

o Woking – additional stabling (6 x 12-car roads) – due by January 2018;

o Farnham – additional stabling (1 x 12-car road) - complete;

o Wimbledon – extending sidings 21-23 (already completed) and extending the shed – due by February 2018;

o Clapham Yard – extension of sidings 6 and 34 to 36 - complete; and

o Strawberry Hill – roads 3 and 4 electrified and extended to 10-car length - complete.
 

Bigfoot

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this link ought to work:

http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse docu...-access-application-form-p fmswt dec18 v2.pdf

I've pulled out the stabling changes here, some are already complete:

The important part of this document is the new depot! Where will it be built? My guess is Feltham. It's for 10 coach trains...

Related to the investment in rolling stock and the enhancements listed above, there are also a number of depot and stabling schemes underway or planned, which are as follows:
 Depot: New scheme at depot includes; 10 x 10-car roads, wash plant, CET, capability for minor repairs /servicing, staff accommodation and 2 x new crossovers. Due for completion in 2020
 

swt_passenger

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The important part of this document is the new depot! Where will it be built? My guess is Feltham. It's for 10 coach trains...

I did wonder about there probably being a word missing there - so I didn't copy it...:D
 

Bigfoot

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Until the new turnback is provided at Virginia Water and sidings at Feltham trains will run ECS between Hounslow and Virginia Water (allows greater flexing for freight services than would occur in passenger service due to platform reoccupation times at Feltham and Staines)

Feltham it is!

Perhaps this should be combined with the First/mtr win swt franchise discussion?
 

swt_passenger

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Feltham it is!

Perhaps this should be combined with the First/mtr win swt franchise discussion?

I linked to the TAA in that discussion and put some train changes up as well. I thought most of the stabling stuff could be left here as it was very much underway under SWT, as the previous page suggests.

To be fair though an extra depot at Feltham is news. I wonder if they'll have all the usual objections, (see below) despite it being a rail project on operational railway land, the locals were up in arms a few years ago when it was proposed for the "airtrack" additional stock depot...

PS, I've had no luck finding anything on the Hounslow planning site, but there is a previous application to use part of the marshalling yard as the office and laydown area for the upcoming Feltham re-signalling project. Even that has required NR to jump through loads of hoops. "Helpfully" the overall area has been declared an SSI, and NR have had to apply to lift a tree preservation order that had been applied to self seeded trees.
 
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XDM

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There's been at least one post about all the SWT siding extensions (possibly in the 707 thread or Waterloo remodelling). Woking Up Yard is getting a number of carriage sidings with CET facilities.

I hope these new Woking carriage sidings won't provide an excuse not to build the Woking flyover, which could revolutionise SWT services if built. I have read that space for the flyover on the Woking country up side is already tight. Having to move newly built berthing might put the nail in the coffin by adding to the flyover costs.
 

pompeyfan

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I hope these new Woking carriage sidings won't provide an excuse not to build the Woking flyover, which could revolutionise SWT services if built. I have read that space for the flyover on the Woking country up side is already tight. Having to move newly built berthing might put the nail in the coffin by adding to the flyover costs.

The idea is to use the current Balfour Betty site subject to negotiations. The Portsmouth direct flyover was covered fairly recently, and the plan is to slew the current up fast through platform 4 and make platform 6 into a through platform.

See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143852&highlight=Woking+flyover

(How am I still getting to grips with hiding URLs, and struggling too clearly!)
 

swt_passenger

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The idea is to use the current Balfour Betty site subject to negotiations. The Portsmouth direct flyover was covered fairly recently, and the plan is to slew the current up fast through platform 4 and make platform 6 into a through platform.

See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143852&highlight=Woking+flyover

(How am I still getting to grips with hiding URLs, and struggling too clearly!)

Just occurred to me that as you started this thread, could you consider amending the title? (Use Edit in first post and click on 'Go Advanced' - if you aren't already familiar with doing it.)

Perhaps something like "Southwestern depot and stabling alterations" now, as loads of useful stuff has been added? Will save troubling a moderator...
 

XDM

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There's a recent (28 Jul 17) Network Change Notice describing the works at Woking:

Cannot cut and paste from the pdf, but it mentions 4 dedicated sidings, it will be a light maintenance depot (LMD), and will be mostly used by displaced 455s (and I assume Aventras in due course).

http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse docu... sswt woking/ncg32017wesx003 notification.pdf

Thanks for posting the proposed change notice. It is unclear to a non SWT person whether it replaces the Balfour Beatty site, or if it takes over some freight sidings closer to the running lines. If the latter then it will be in the middle of the landing point for the proposed, & essential, Guildford to up fast/up slow flyover. It will put an end to the idea. Shameful.
 

swt_passenger

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The new Feltham stabling depot planning application number is: 00553/F/PA3

It can’t be directly linked to, you’d have to search on the Hounslow planning portal.
Basically 10 parallel sidings and a headshunt alongside the running lines, accessible from the country end of the former Feltham Marshalling Yard site, access is through a train washplant. The site takes up almost the whole length of the site, ie almost to the River Crane (where the bridge failure occurred a few years back).

This was previously mentioned in the class 701 thread, but the application drawings werent available then.
 
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Helvellyn

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I don't know why they didn't bite the bullet and go for something bigger and completely close Staines and Strawberry Hill depots.
 
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