SPAD at Charing Cross

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HMS Ark Royal

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Seeing reports on twitter that a Southeastern unit had a SPAD between Charing Cross and Waterloo East this evening causing quite some delay. The TOC is blaming "signalling issues", but passengers are replying that the driver went past the red at speed. RealTimetrains are saying it was an issue with the train crew and Southeastern are now saying an "operating incident".

No idea what unit it was - Anybody able to give more detail?

Train Involved: 1N96 1801 London Charing Cross to London Waterloo East
 
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I imagine that you're unlikely to get much more detail, as not only is the information I imagine sensitive, it is also probably on a need to know basis and would be inappropriate to put in the public domain.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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I imagine that you're unlikely to get much more detail, as not only is the information I imagine sensitive, it is also probably on a need to know basis and would be inappropriate to put in the public domain.

Thats what i thought at first, but given the number of members here somebody from the group might have known more. From reading their twitter feed, seems the driver himself told the passengers it was a SPAD. If thats true, it would be the first i've heard of the driver telling the truth about such an event
 
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theironroad

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Was it a cat a or b spad (as previously known)?

Was the driver at fault or did the signal revert without time to prevent passing it.

I had a spad last year but as the signal reverted from green to red 50 yards ahead of me while doing 84mph,despite my best efforts the train sailed passed the red to a juddering stand. Not nice for the driver.

However, the signalling centre quickly admitted that it was a technical fault with the signal and as such I was at zero fault.

I know there is often a witch hunt mentality on these fora against rail staff and drivers in particular, but unlikely very few people on here have facts about what happened.
 

scott118

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their twitter feed? People on the train?

I don't see what benefit, knowing the unit number, has to anyone, other than the driver (perhaps..) and the TOC. An investigation, will most certainly be taking place, and i should imagine the driver feels pretty low at the present. More so, if it was, a Cat A

Lets hope, in this instance, he also, isn't a member on here too....
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Was it a cat a or b spad (as previously known)?

Was the driver at fault or did the signal revert without time to prevent passing it.

I had a spad last year but as the signal reverted from green to red 50 yards ahead of me while doing 84mph,despite my best efforts the train sailed passed the red to a juddering stand. Not nice for the driver.

However, the signalling centre quickly admitted that it was a technical fault with the signal and as such I was at zero fault.

I know there is often a witch hunt mentality on these fora against rail staff and drivers in particular, but unlikely very few people on here have facts about what happened.

Its unclear, but there are a few curious comments regarding the driver with one person mentioning he'd been sacked on the spot. (Not sure if thats true or even possible) but from all accounts it appears the signal was at red and he sailed through.

Anyway, I thought I'd start a thread for people to add things to
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
their twitter feed? People on the train?

I don't see what benefit, knowing the unit number, has to anyone, other than the driver (perhaps..) and the TOC. An investigation, will most certainly be taking place, and i should imagine the driver feels pretty low at the present. More so, if it was, a Cat A

Lets hope, in this instance, he also, isn't a member on here too....

Yes, both SE's and members of the public

Mind you, not their night tonight as they've had a trespass incident too
 

cf111

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He wouldn't have been sacked on the spot. It's virtually impossible to do that to anyone in any job, never mind in an industry as unionised as the railways (that isn't a dig at the unions, I am a card-carrying member of one myself).
 

HMS Ark Royal

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He wouldn't have been sacked on the spot. It's virtually impossible to do that to anyone in any job, never mind in an industry as unionised as the railways (that isn't a dig at the unions, I am a card-carrying member of one myself).

That was my thought also...

Seems its not their night as they have had issues at Charing Cross, London Bridge and Victoria
 

Philip Phlopp

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Its unclear, but there are a few curious comments regarding the driver with one person mentioning he'd been sacked on the spot. (Not sure if thats true or even possible) but from all accounts it appears the signal was at red and he sailed through.

Anyway, I thought I'd start a thread for people to add things to

I'm curious how passengers with no forward vantage point can confirm the signal was at red and that the driver sailed through.

There's absolutely no chance at all that the driver will have been sacked on the spot, it's against TOC procedure, RAIB procedure and agreed protocol with ASLEF. The driver will need to debrief the TOC staff, NR and possibly RAIB because, as we know, it's far from certain the driver was at fault.

Twitter is full of people who think they know what's going on, but absolutely don't. I'd stop trying to put together an explanation, unless you've got access to the OTDR and any FF-CCTV plus the signalling logs, you're only going to make yourself look like a proper tit.
 

Matt Taylor

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A thread for tittle tattle and gossip. The people who have further information won't be coming here to spill the beans, unless they want to lose their jobs.
 

D1009

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The TOC is blaming "signalling issues", but passengers are replying that the driver went past the red at speed.
How much "speed" would you get between Charing Cross and Waterloo East. In this case as in many others, speculation is not helpful.
 

Clip

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How much "speed" would you get between Charing Cross and Waterloo East. In this case as in many others, speculation is not helpful.

Certainly isn't and it took it 3 mins to travel the 61 chains it is between the two so not very fast I would think
 

Chrisgr31

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There is no job where you are working for a reputable company that you could be sacked on the spot. Might be suspended or in this case withdrawn from driving duties but an instant sacking would give rise to legal issues.

Equally as a passenger you are unlikely to know if a train has gone through a red light as it will usually have changed to red by the time you see it.

The reality of course is that a driver (well with very infrequent exceptions) is not going to go through a red light on purpose. We all make mistakes in our job, but most of us can get away with them. Train drivers cannot, so if this was a driver error they have my sympathy.
 

richw

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Its unclear, but there are a few curious comments regarding the driver with one person mentioning he'd been sacked on the spot. (Not sure if thats true or even possible) but from all accounts it appears the signal was at red and he sailed through.

He wouldn't have been sacked on the spot. Relieved of that service certainly.
There is no forward view so members of the public would see the signals. I recently travelled in the 2nd coach of a service, and by the time that 2nd coach reached the signals they had all reverted to red as the front of the train was already in the section (obviously), so somebody lacking common sense may well see that as their coach passing red so the whole train did.
 

theironroad

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He wouldn't have been sacked on the spot. Relieved of that service certainly.
There is no forward view so members of the public would see the signals. I recently travelled in the 2nd coach of a service, and by the time that 2nd coach reached the signals they had all reverted to red as the front of the train was already in the section (obviously), so somebody lacking common sense may well see that as their coach passing red so the whole train did.

Not certainly.

If it was immediately obvious that it was cat a, then yes the driver would probably be relieved asap.

If if was cat b or other then providing the driver consents to continuing and feels he or she is OK to continue then they could continue the rest of their day.

This is not the apprentice, with alansugar sitting there saying 'you're fired', whatever the issue, there is a process to be followed and if and I repeat, IF, the driver was at fault, they would NOT be sacked on the spot, so carry on whatever your evening entertainment is, cos this is not it.
 

Tio Terry

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Thats what i thought at first, but given the number of members here somebody from the group might have known more. From reading their twitter feed, seems the driver himself told the passengers it was a SPAD. If thats true, it would be the first i've heard of the driver telling the truth about such an event

That's not fair. In my 50+ years experience within the industry I've known a lot of drivers to admit to making mistakes, just maybe not publicly as you are suggesting has happened. There's also the possibility of a Technical SPAD, when it's not the drivers fault but a Systems Failure that meant a SPAD could not have been avoided.

Truth is we don't have enough evidence to make a reasonable judgement so we must all wait to find out what really happened.

In the past I have found myself sitting in the third coach of a train that has, to me, quite obviously come to an emergency stop with a signal in view from my window. Yes, it was red as it should have been, but with the sudden and full brake application and the visibility of the signal I could conclude we had SPADed. Having said that, I didn't say anything to fellow passengers. After some time we continued to the next station where the driver was relieved of his duties and the train cancelled.

In terms of dismissal, that could never, ever, be on the spot. Most serious would be suspended from duty but even that is not probable without D&A testing results.
 

GB

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Just to put this to rest....There was no SPAD as the signal was showing a proceed aspect when the train passed it. The way the signalling system is set up caused a spad alarm in the box which caused the signaller to send an emergency stop message to the driver.

Again, it has been proved by the data loggers no spad occured so the twitter twits don't know what they are talking about.
 

eman_resu

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Just to put this to rest....There was no SPAD as the signal was showing a proceed aspect when the train passed it. The way the signalling system is set up caused a spad alarm in the box which caused the signaller to send an emergency stop message to the driver.

Again, it has been proved by the data loggers no spad occured so the twitter twits don't know what they are talking about.

Will there be an investigation for this then, in terms of a signalling design issue or other process failure?

This cant be normal practice. Surely the signalling design needs changing to avoid Signallers sending out Stop messages based on false information.
 

headshot119

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Will there be an investigation for this then, in terms of a signalling design issue or other process failure?

This cant be normal practice. Surely the signalling design needs changing to avoid Signallers sending out Stop messages based on false information.

A SPAD alarm works by comparing the occupancy of track circuits with the state of the signal aspects.

A track circuit momentarily "bobbing" could trigger a SPAD alarm where no SPAD has taken place. As always the railway is a fail safe environment. And the signaller and driver have followed correct procedure to ensure passenger safety.

As for Twitter :roll:
 

Domh245

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This cant be normal practice. Surely the signalling design needs changing to avoid Signallers sending out Stop messages based on false information.

That is more or less the point of fail-safe though. If something fails (eg a spurious SPAD alarm) then it is infinitely more safe if nothing moves and the signaller can confirm what has happened before getting it all running again, than for trains to keep running, potentially into dangerous situations. It would be expensive and disruptive, but nowhere near as expensive or disruptive as something like the Ladbroke Grove or Clapham Junction crashes
 

LAX54

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Can confirm NO SPAD, so everyone wittering on on twitter, were barking up the wrong tree !
 

SPADTrap

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I can imagine the driver making a PA to explain what happened but the daily mail drama conditioned passengers heard red light and put 2 and 2 together and made 17.
 

Antman

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I can imagine the driver making a PA to explain what happened but the daily mail drama conditioned passengers heard red light and put 2 and 2 together and made 17.

I think you're the one letting your prejudices get in the way of the facts
 

DarloRich

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Seeing reports on twitter that a Southeastern unit had a SPAD between Charing Cross and Waterloo East this evening causing quite some delay. The TOC is blaming "signalling issues", but passengers are replying that the driver went past the red at speed. RealTimetrains are saying it was an issue with the train crew and Southeastern are now saying an "operating incident".

No idea what unit it was - Anybody able to give more detail?

Train Involved: 1N96 1801 London Charing Cross to London Waterloo East

I am not sure anyone with knowledge of the incident will want to share that on a public forum and it is really any of your or my business at this stage. The investigation chain must be allowed to run its course without prejudice.

Its unclear, but there are a few curious comments regarding the driver with one person mentioning he'd been sacked on the spot. (Not sure if thats true or even possible) but from all accounts it appears the signal was at red and he sailed through.

No he wasn't. That would be entirely inappropriate in any industry, especially one with such regulation and process as the railway industry.
 

Greenback

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I am not sure anyone with knowledge of the incident will want to share that on a public forum and it is really any of your or my business at this stage. The investigation chain must be allowed to run its course without prejudice.

Agreed, and this thread is now closed.
 
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