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Speed limits and making up time

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Mintona

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It's quite difficult. You'll often find that station dwell times are too short, and as a result lose ~20 seconds at each stop. This soon adds up. Without the station stops, staying on time would be a lot easier provided you're running on green signals.
 
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azz7008

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I must admit I've had a few train journeys where the train has mysteriously caught back quite a few minutes. I am talking 5 minutes or so on a 40 minute journey without any long stops.
 

Flying_Turtle

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No, you shouldn't, but that wasn't what was asked. Downhill over-speeding is probably the most insidious and most dangerous, thus requiring most control to be exercised.

I was talking about heavy trains not normal trains. Heavy trains normally have a weight / braking power ratio lower than most trains and if don t have regenerative/dynamic braking in long downhill section you can't even maintain line speed permanently without risking loosing you brakes by overheating them ;)
 

Bevan Price

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Not a speed limiter, but an engine governor (a sort of balls to the walls thing) which would, by coincidence, have operated at a particular speed.

I am genuinely in doubt about the speed of this, and would still welcome more information.

I travelled on a lot of early dmus in the 1960s, and anything above 70 mph was extremely rare. Very occasionally the governor must have been slightly mis-set, and a twin power car Class 108 once reached 73 mph. (Some of the 108s with only a single power car could struggle even to reach 65 mph on level track...)
 

cjmillsnun

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I must admit I've had a few train journeys where the train has mysteriously caught back quite a few minutes. I am talking 5 minutes or so on a 40 minute journey without any long stops.

Some timetables have slack in them, which means when the train is on time, it isn't at line speed. If it is running late, the driver then has the option of driving closer to the speed limit to make up time.
 

G0ORC

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Not sure about that but there was the twenty minute club - as in twenty minutes from Paddington to Reading. But that was before boy managers came along and when drivers could be trusted on their judgement.

Are you a troll?
 

The Planner

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How difficult is it to keep a train on time? If you drive at the perfect speed limit, would you arrive on time or early? Is there grace time built in to timetables? Is slight speeding permitted during late running?

It depends as all running times are rounded to a half or a whole minute. Some will round down, some up so there will always be instances where a train can be ever so slightly early or late but on the cumulative journey it should be ok.

Lots of issues with dwell times due to growth or again a door cycle which can be 45 seconds or 1 minute 15 seconds where we can only put in a half or whole minute. You counteract that by rounding up at alternative stops.

Running times are based on linespeeds, any signalling constraints and capabilities of the traction in the main, however some older running times which used to be achievable now get tight due to professional driving etc.. "Slack" or "padding" is an emotive subject, unless it is true performance time requested by a TOC and agreed then there shouldn't be any, PTT vs WTT is not padding in the timetable.
 

pdq

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Thinking about train performance and timekeeping... Are trains driven 'flat out' up to speed limits, and braked as hard as they can be, or is there usually some performance in reserve? If the latter, can/do drivers drive more 'enthusiastically' (and therefore less efficiently) if running late?

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Mintona

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Thinking about train performance and timekeeping... Are trains driven 'flat out' up to speed limits, and braked as hard as they can be, or is there usually some performance in reserve? If the latter, can/do drivers drive more 'enthusiastically' (and therefore less efficiently) if running late?

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There can be an element of that. I've known drivers who don't hit linespeed because they know they don't need to and can still stay on time. I myself prefer to travel at the maximum permissible, you never know what could be waiting for you at the next station (6 bicycles, a passenger in a wheelchair, passengers from a previously delayed train etc.) and so arriving 20 seconds early could be useful towards a right time departure.

With regards to braking, all the TOCs have their own version of a 'Professional Drivers Policy' and this tends to state how they wish for the train to be driven. Most trains have 3 brake steps + emergency; however it certainly isn't good practice to be using step 3 or emergency brakes regularly. Sometimes it can be inevitable if you slightly misjudge a stop or encounter slipperiness, but you wouldn't want to be found braking as hard as possible at each stop to make up time. My old company's policy stated step 2 should be used initially, and moved back to step 1 for a smooth stop. My current company prefer just step 1 to be used on some trains, and 2 on others, so it varies.

For those of you who don't have any experience, step 1 is the lighter brake, and takes the longest distance to stop, and they gradually get more forceful until you hit emergency which will bring you to a half quickly. It's sort of the equivalent of pushing the brake on your car a quarter, half, three quarters or fully down.
 

jamesst

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Thinking about train performance and timekeeping... Are trains driven 'flat out' up to speed limits, and braked as hard as they can be, or is there usually some performance in reserve? If the latter, can/do drivers drive more 'enthusiastically' (and therefore less efficiently) if running late?

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Can't speak for other tocs but where I work braking is more gradual. Braking hard at the last minute brings it's own risks of misjudging or unexpected rail conditions leading to the potential for overruns, fail to calls etc. Plus of course it wouldn't be a comfortable ride for the passengers.
 

The Planner

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There are certainly differences between drivers. There has been many a timing run where one driver has been significantly quicker than another.
 

SpacePhoenix

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When a train reaches a yellow signal having had all greens, for a 4-step brake typically which step gets used?
 

MrPIC

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Depends on the location, and where the red will be. If its an expected cautionary signal for a level crossing say, then you will know where the red will be and can brake a bit lighter, conditions depending. If I get unusual yellows or in an area with closely spaced or 3 aspect signals then step 2 initial brake application.
 

pdq

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So what about acceleration? Is there much in reserve in normal circumstances, assuming ideal rail conditions? I assume this would vary between electric, diesel, transmission type etc

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Deepgreen

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I was talking about heavy trains not normal trains. Heavy trains normally have a weight / braking power ratio lower than most trains and if don t have regenerative/dynamic braking in long downhill section you can't even maintain line speed permanently without risking loosing you brakes by overheating them ;)

These days, long/heavy trains have near enough as much braking power as short ones, given that all vehicles are braked. Brakes are designed to operate effectively when their parent vehicle is fully loaded. Gone are the days when only the loco and brake van had brakes, or when individual wagons' brakes needed to be manually 'pinned down' before descending banks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There are certainly differences between drivers. There has been many a timing run where one driver has been significantly quicker than another.

These days, the differences are way smaller than they used to be, when drivers' actions were less heavily monitored. On top of that, most TOCs have 'eco-friendly' driving regimes where sharp braking/acceleration is discouraged, and where coasting is de rigeur. I'm not so sure that even with late running, drivers are encouraged to forego this technique.

On a closely-related issue, I have lost count of the times when I have witnessed drivers waiting at signals for significant times after they have cleared, or coming to a halt at a signal well after it has cleared. This, when repeated a few times en route, can add up to a couple of minutes lost very easily.

The converse of the latter is when signallers fail to clear routes promptly, as happened again this morning when the GWR Reading to Redhill 0830 arrival was held outside Redhill for several minutes before receiving the shunt aspect to enter platform 1, where the north end was occupied by a Southern unit (this is a regular move during the emergency Southern timetable). The previous movement at platform 1 had been more than ten minutes before (from RTT), so this must be assumed to have been inattention by the signaller. The connection to the Victoria train on the adjacent platform was missed as a result, with the GWR train arriving 5 late and departing 4 late. All knock-on effects from what appears to be slack operating (an all-too-common feature of Redhill).
 
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ComUtoR

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On a closely-related issue, I have lost count of the times when I have witnessed drivers waiting at signals for significant times after they have cleared, or coming to a halt at a signal well after it has cleared. This, when repeated a few times en route, can add up to a couple of minutes lost very easily.

What do you consider to be "significant" ? and by "cleared" what aspect are you talking about ?

The second part confuses me. The unit comes to a stand "well after" a signal has cleared ? How long after is has cleared do they typically come to a stand and at what speed are they going before the signal is cleared ?
 

rebmcr

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The converse of the latter is when signallers fail to clear routes promptly, as happened again this morning when the GWR Reading to Redhill 0830 arrival was held outside Redhill for several minutes before receiving the shunt aspect to enter platform 1, where the north end was occupied by a Southern unit (this is a regular move during the emergency Southern timetable). The previous movement at platform 1 had been more than ten minutes before (from RTT), so this must be assumed to have been inattention by the signaller. The connection to the Victoria train on the adjacent platform was missed as a result, with the GWR train arriving 5 late and departing 4 late. All knock-on effects from what appears to be slack operating (an all-too-common feature of Redhill).

Some signalling systems impose a cooldown delay before clearing a signal under some circumstances, such as when a route set/unset would display an adverse change of aspect. That might be happening there — does anyone heve knowledge of the box or panel that controls Redhill?
 

contrad!ction

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The converse of the latter is when signallers fail to clear routes promptly, as happened again this morning when the GWR Reading to Redhill 0830 arrival was held outside Redhill for several minutes before receiving the shunt aspect to enter platform 1, where the north end was occupied by a Southern unit (this is a regular move during the emergency Southern timetable). The previous movement at platform 1 had been more than ten minutes before (from RTT), so this must be assumed to have been inattention by the signaller.

Sorry, but this is a bit insulting.

What if the signaller was dealing with a line blockage or some other safety of the line incident? What if the signaller hadn't received a call from the station to say that there was enough room on the platform and couldn't contact them? (As happens frequently).

The information we receive when there is amended working can be very poor on occasions, what if the signaller wasn't 100% where that unit was going and had to check with the station/control? What if (for whatever reason) the route wouldn't clear? What if the driver questioned the route as he/she isn't used to receiving a calling on aspect and wanted to double check? What if the signal did clear but the driver didn't notice it change up? (sunlight can be a pain in this respect).

Also bear in mind that signallers on very busy workstations such as these can be moving 30+ trains in the peaks and it's very easy to miss one when dealing with something else (especially if there is amended working/an emergency timetable in use).

We all try our best with what we're given but to claim that if a route doesn't clear then the signaller isn't paying attention is naive at best.
 

GB

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The converse of the latter is when signallers fail to clear routes promptly, as happened again this morning when the GWR Reading to Redhill 0830 arrival was held outside Redhill for several minutes before receiving the shunt aspect to enter platform 1, where the north end was occupied by a Southern unit (this is a regular move during the emergency Southern timetable). The previous movement at platform 1 had been more than ten minutes before (from RTT), so this must be assumed to have been inattention by the signaller. The connection to the Victoria train on the adjacent platform was missed as a result, with the GWR train arriving 5 late and departing 4 late. All knock-on effects from what appears to be slack operating (an all-too-common feature of Redhill).

That old assume adage is designed for people like you.

You must have some ability to be standing on a platform or sitting behind a computer screen to determine why a signal hasn't cleared as quickly as you'd like.
 

Deepgreen

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What do you consider to be "significant" ? and by "cleared" what aspect are you talking about ?

The second part confuses me. The unit comes to a stand "well after" a signal has cleared ? How long after is has cleared do they typically come to a stand and at what speed are they going before the signal is cleared ?

I mean that, if the driver was watching the signal, there should only be a few seconds (single figures) before moving off, not half a minute or so.

The second part refers to my experiences of approaching signals when I am seated on the near side and have a view of the signal we are approaching, when I frequently see signals clear from red to any aspect before we have reached it (at slow speed obviously), but we stop anyway and only restart after several more seconds; again, strongly suggesting that the driver has not been watching the signal and stops without further checking. When we are repeatedly told that every second counts in maintaining the service, these do not help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, but this is a bit insulting.

What if the signaller was dealing with a line blockage or some other safety of the line incident? What if the signaller hadn't received a call from the station to say that there was enough room on the platform and couldn't contact them? (As happens frequently).

The information we receive when there is amended working can be very poor on occasions, what if the signaller wasn't 100% where that unit was going and had to check with the station/control? What if (for whatever reason) the route wouldn't clear? What if the driver questioned the route as he/she isn't used to receiving a calling on aspect and wanted to double check? What if the signal did clear but the driver didn't notice it change up? (sunlight can be a pain in this respect).

Also bear in mind that signallers on very busy workstations such as these can be moving 30+ trains in the peaks and it's very easy to miss one when dealing with something else (especially if there is amended working/an emergency timetable in use).

We all try our best with what we're given but to claim that if a route doesn't clear then the signaller isn't paying attention is naive at best.

Indeed so, and if you read the post fully, you'll see that I did not necessarily blame the signaller (and it wasn't my intention to insult) - merely the system that produces these delays, which can lead to distraction/inattention. I know, for example, that there were no delays, blockages, etc., this morning at Redhill, and, in any case, this delay occurs quite frequently (to scheduled, not exceptional, movements) on occasions when everything else is running smoothly. Today's driver was a regular (I won't specify the working), and sunlight was not an issue. On other occasions, however, the shunt forward aspect is displayed for the same working (with previous movements having been to time as well) even before we come to a stand at the signal, so it certainly can be done.
 
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Muzer

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Nope. You stated it "this must be assumed to have been inattention by the signaller". No it mustn't, and you needn't have said that. You are clearly blaming the signaller.
 

Deepgreen

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That old assume adage is designed for people like you.

You must have some ability to be standing on a platform or sitting behind a computer screen to determine why a signal hasn't cleared as quickly as you'd like.

It's really not just "as quickly as I would like", but not as quickly as should/could be (and frequently is), achieved. Also, not necessarily "ability" per se, but great familiarity with the service, layout and operating parameters at Redhill, repeated similar experiences, nearly 40 years of railway operating experience and a (fairly average) level of intelligence to work out what is going on. It's not hard to piece together the various sources on information at the time (and afterwards) to arrive at an informed judgement. I don't claim it to be cold, hard fact, by the way, and am open to correction by evidence to the contrary. I also obviously acknowledge that signallers and drivers are human, but my example is one which occurs too often to be ignored, and leads to further problems at nodes like Redhill (not to mention missed potential connections, even if they are not advertised as such).
 

ComUtoR

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I mean that, if the driver was watching the signal, there should only be a few seconds (single figures) before moving off, not half a minute or so.

So you would say that 30 seconds is "significant" ? Do you know what the aspect clears to ?

The second part refers to my experiences of approaching signals when I am seated on the near side and have a view of the signal we are approaching, when I frequently see signals clear from red to any aspect before we have reached it (at slow speed obviously), but we stop anyway and only restart after several more seconds;

I would really need the speed that the unit is going to really be able to determine what's happening. I have a theory but can't really say accurately. Distance from the signal, previous aspects and new aspect are all very significant as to what is happening.

again, strongly suggesting that the driver has not been watching the signal and stops without further checking.

It doesn't suggest anything other than what I am currently theorising. If the Driver has brought the unit to a stand that requires concentration due to the nature of the stopping point and the reason why they are stopping. They must have stopped because the signal was red; unless you are suggesting the signal had been clear for a significant length of time and the Driver deliberately stopped on a Green ? If they did stop on a Red but then pulled away after a few seconds then that suggest they did in fact look at the signal otherwise they would be pulling away against a Red. It would be more a case of the Driver not looking if the unit continued without stopping. To stop a train is a very deliberate action. If the Driver wasn't watching the signal then why did they stop ?


...nearly 40 years of railway operating experience ...

What do you do on railway ? I didn't know you were staff. Clearly neither a Driver or Signaller. Platform ?
 
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Deepgreen

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Nope. You stated it "this must be assumed to have been inattention by the signaller". No it mustn't, and you needn't have said that. You are clearly blaming the signaller.

To use your term - nope; just the system that may leave them struggling on occasions. That said, of course, I can't rule out downright incompetence by some individual signallers (just as could apply to anyone else, including me), but that is not the point, which is that slow signalling-related responses (either by signallers or drivers or platform staff) contribute to delays, whatever the cause of the delayed responses may be.

I feel I've probably gone a bit off-topic from speed limits anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So you would say that 30 seconds is "significant" ? Do you know what the aspect clears to ?



I would really need the speed that the unit is going to really be able to determine what's happening. I have a theory but can't really say accurately. Distance from the signal, previous aspects and new aspect are all very significant as to what is happening.



It doesn't suggest anything other than what I am currently theorising. If the Driver has brought the unit to a stand that requires concentration due to the nature of the stopping point and the reason why they are stopping. They must have stopped because the signal was red; unless you are suggesting the signal had been clear for a significant length of time and the Driver deliberately stopped on a Green ? If they did stop on a Red but then pulled away after a few seconds then that suggest they did in fact look at the signal otherwise they would be pulling away against a Red. It would be more a case of the Driver not looking if the unit continued without stopping. To stop a train is a very deliberate action. If the Driver wasn't watching the signal then why did they stop ?




What do you do on railway ? I didn't know you were staff. Clearly neither a Driver or Signaller. Platform ?

I'm not going to disclose my current role, but suffice to say that one doesn't have to be in a particular role to understand broadly what it entails and to process the evidence of events on specific occasions. I fear this is one of those discussions where 'you had to have been there' to understand fully and has become too involved to spell out in huge detail without hijacking the thread, but I will say that on many occasions I have been on trains where we approach a red, and, when we are around 50-100metres away and braking at about 10mph, it changes to green or double yellow, but we still continue to brake and come to a stand at the clear signal before moving off again after several more seconds. It doesn't take such intense concentration from a driver that he/she needs to stare down at the handle to bring the train to a stand and therefore miss the change of aspect ahead!
 

ComUtoR

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but I will say that on many occasions I have been on trains where we approach a red, and, when we are around 50-100metres away and braking at about 10mph, it changes to green or double yellow, but we still continue to brake and come to a stand at the clear signal before moving off again after several more seconds.

The problem is; that is almost exactly how I drive my units.

It doesn't take such intense concentration from a driver that he/she needs to stare down at the handle to bring the train to a stand and therefore miss the change of aspect ahead!

It is a very intense time. You are trying to account for many factors. The speed in which an aspect can change can easily be missed. You can literally look down at your speedo and then look up within a second to see the signal has changed.

Again, I think you are making way to many assumptions to say the driver is not looking. From the description it suggests to me, someone who drives trains, that the Driver is looking. That is why those actions have taken place.

BTW you look very good for your age.
 
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MichaelAMW

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I'm not going to disclose my current role, but suffice to say that one doesn't have to be in a particular role to understand broadly what it entails and to process the evidence of events on specific occasions. I fear this is one of those discussions where 'you had to have been there' to understand fully and has become too involved to spell out in huge detail without hijacking the thread, but I will say that on many occasions I have been on trains where we approach a red, and, when we are around 50-100metres away and braking at about 10mph, it changes to green or double yellow, but we still continue to brake and come to a stand at the clear signal before moving off again after several more seconds. It doesn't take such intense concentration from a driver that he/she needs to stare down at the handle to bring the train to a stand and therefore miss the change of aspect ahead!

In these situations is the train on a rising gradient? It can take a few seconds for the brakes to release and for power to be taken after operating the relevant controls - many drivers have previously commented on this in many threads - so there might be situations where it is better to bring the train to a controlled stop and then start again, rather than risk rolling back while those few seconds are elapsing.
 

ComUtoR

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Over 30 years in the London rail industry - from London Transport, through London Underground, then Tube Lines, and currently back to TfL under the latest organisation changes.

You work for TfL. Really not that hard to find in the modern connected world.

I'm not going to disclose my current role

I think I've found your job role too. <D

Also found your middle name and road you live on... The internet is a scary place.
 
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tsr

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On top of that, most TOCs have 'eco-friendly' driving regimes where sharp braking/acceleration is discouraged, and where coasting is de rigeur. I'm not so sure that even with late running, drivers are encouraged to forego this technique.

Coasting has been commonplace for many years; advisory signs at appropriate places on the network have existed for quite some time - probably amongst the older lineside signage I see on a daily basis - and coasting has been long appreciated as a viable method of maintaining or reducing to an appropriate speed. I suppose the question could be: why would a driver reduce the use of coasting, either with or without lineside advisory signage, unless it tied in with significantly increased use of maximum available linespeed and signal section capabilities, and unless it did not introduce unnecessary inconsistencies in their driving style? Carrying out safety-critical work in an unusual and inconsistent manner, quite likely while the body is reacting to a constantly changing environment and working at extreme ends of the clock, could result in some people being at a higher risk of a safety of the line incident. (It is similar with train dispatch, safety critical communication and so on; trying to speed things up can result in cut corners and safety hazards emerging which would otherwise not have done.)

On a closely-related issue, I have lost count of the times when I have witnessed drivers waiting at signals for significant times after they have cleared, or coming to a halt at a signal well after it has cleared. This, when repeated a few times en route, can add up to a couple of minutes lost very easily.

I'm not sure which stock you notice this on the most, but in addition to what has been posted in the thread above... although I tend to deal with newer evolutions of Turbo stock, if you are noticing it on the Class 165/166 I suppose it could be a similar to a quirk of the power control and transmission on the 170/171s, where there are awkward moments, usually some way through a journey, where the power/brake controller does not engage power after having stopped at a station or signal, and the controller has to be left for a second or two (or a transmission fault cleared by setting the selector to neutral) before it can be tried again. This is irritating and happens without warning on most occasions. Having discussed this with a number of drivers, I think it is clear that everyone does their best, but a lot of trains have their moments, even down to individual units, and sometimes one just has to shrug one's shoulders and move on.

There is also a different theory entirely, which is that the signaller may be on the phone to the driver whilst the signal is at danger, and clears it to some sort of relevant proceed aspect when they are still talking, having come to a clear enough understanding that the driver is at a stand and that they have reached a point where the driver knows enough about the movement, but may still be finishing off the call in some way. The driver may not be in a position to end the call, reset the DRA, take power and focus on the road ahead, etc., simultaneously; instead they may be finishing off the call and briefly visualising any unusual moves needed. I have come across more than a few occasions where drivers have told me that "they cleared the road as I was talking and then I took power when we had finished the call", which is often a paraphrase of this.

The converse of the latter is when signallers fail to clear routes promptly, as happened again this morning when the GWR Reading to Redhill 0830 arrival was held outside Redhill for several minutes before receiving the shunt aspect to enter platform 1, where the north end was occupied by a Southern unit (this is a regular move during the emergency Southern timetable). The previous movement at platform 1 had been more than ten minutes before (from RTT), so this must be assumed to have been inattention by the signaller. The connection to the Victoria train on the adjacent platform was missed as a result, with the GWR train arriving 5 late and departing 4 late. All knock-on effects from what appears to be slack operating (an all-too-common feature of Redhill).

You only arrived 3mins late per the public timetable, and your connection was extremely tight and not officially timetabled, albeit doable in the right circumstances.

As an extremely regular user of Redhill (in fact I dare say I am there more often than you are!), I can fully and completely understand how awkward the connections between trains can be, with both timetable, layout of the station and information provision. I know that people want to get the first available train, especially with such huge uncertainty over reliability on the GTR network. However, even the slightest thing can break your "connection" in this case. Realistically, this must be appreciated.

What if the signaller was dealing with a line blockage or some other safety of the line incident? What if the signaller hadn't received a call from the station to say that there was enough room on the platform and couldn't contact them? (As happens frequently).

As it happens the 2C19 Horsham to Victoria stopper had arrived on Platform 2 a little early, just as the GWR train in question was waiting outside, so the platform staff could well have have been dealing with something on that train rather than being in the "inner sanctum" where their phone to the signaller is.

The information we receive when there is amended working can be very poor on occasions, what if the signaller wasn't 100% where that unit was going and had to check with the station/control? What if (for whatever reason) the route wouldn't clear? What if the driver questioned the route as he/she isn't used to receiving a calling on aspect and wanted to double check? What if the signal did clear but the driver didn't notice it change up? (sunlight can be a pain in this respect).

Also bear in mind that signallers on very busy workstations such as these can be moving 30+ trains in the peaks and it's very easy to miss one when dealing with something else (especially if there is amended working/an emergency timetable in use).

I know, for example, that there were no delays, blockages, etc., this morning at Redhill, and, in any case, this delay occurs quite frequently (to scheduled, not exceptional, movements) on occasions when everything else is running smoothly. Today's driver was a regular (I won't specify the working), and sunlight was not an issue. On other occasions, however, the shunt forward aspect is displayed for the same working (with previous movements having been to time as well) even before we come to a stand at the signal, so it certainly can be done.

There were plenty of things which weren't quite working as well as expected in the Redhill area this morning, exactly the same time your train was due to arrive. Amongst them were regulating decisions due to the congestion caused by a 20mph ESR on the Up Quarry immediately after Earlswood North Junction, causing trains to receive severely restrictive aspects in the morning peak; and a late-running detachment of coaches leading to a late-running shunt at Redhill itself, which is part of the emergency timetable for which information does seem to get periodically misplaced.

Anyway, you have specified you were on the GWR train scheduled to arrive at Redhill at 0830. Naturally, I am quite sure if the driver and signaller concerned do end up reading your posts they will take them in, er, the best possible way...
 

Mutant Lemming

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Some speed restrictions may be due to external factors. Whether true or not we were led to believe that the restriction over Praed Street junction was more to do with vibrations to the hospital buildings above than the state of the track over the junction.
 
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