Speeding on motorways

[cjp]

I think most people do not leave enough time for their journey and do not appreciate that speeding wil save then little time overall - and what will they do with the minutes saved anyway? Unwind after their journey?

Driving 50 miles at 80mph instead of 70mph will save you about 5 minutes or 0.03% of one's day. Not even time to make and drink a cup of tea.

 

[Minilad]

Modern drivers are no worse than drivers in bygone years are they?

Cars are much safer, braking, steering, crashworthyness etc.

Actually yes. I would say driving standards are getting lower overall. Plus the fact there are a lot more of them

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually yes. I would say driving standards are getting lower overall.

I think I would be inclined to agree. It is also the case that cars are affordable to far younger drivers, who often don't necessarily have the maturity to make decisions correctly on the road.

I have spoken to younger drivers who have genuinely said "it doesn't matter if I have a crash, it just gets claimed on the insurance". Anyone who holds that view needs a lifetime ban.

A case for the driving age to be increased - at least to 18 perhaps with a minimum of 12 months instructed learning period by a qualified instructor, so a minimum age of 19 independent on the road in practice? Though it does have to be said that after peaking recently it seems driving is increasingly going back out of favour with young people.

 

[90019]

I think I would be inclined to agree. It is also the case that cars are affordable to far younger drivers, who often don't necessarily have the maturity to make decisions correctly on the road.

In my experience we have plenty of older drivers around with similar issues, though they tend to be more along the lines of 'I've been driving for 40 years, I know how to drive, therefore you can't teach me anything'.

I have spoken to younger drivers who have genuinely said "it doesn't matter if I have a crash, it just gets claimed on the insurance". Anyone who holds that view needs a lifetime ban.

I wonder how many of them are driving round in cars bought and/or insured by the bank of mum and dad.
I suppose it could also be to do with the numbers of cars that are either leased or on finance, meaning people don't really know the actual value of what they're driving.

 

[ainsworth74]

Plus isn't car ownership actually declining amongst younger people rather than rising?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my experience we have plenty of older drivers around with similar issues, though they tend to be more along the lines of 'I've been driving for 40 years, I know how to drive, therefore you can't teach me anything'.

Also true.

All of it argues in favour of (a) more stringent testing, and (b) more frequent retests (possibly triggered by an accident?)

Or indeed insurance black-boxes.

I wonder how many of them are driving round in cars bought and/or insured by the bank of mum and dad.

Quite a lot, I'd imagine.

I suppose it could also be to do with the numbers of cars that are either leased or on finance, meaning people don't really know the actual value of what they're driving.

That too.
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Plus isn't car ownership actually declining amongst younger people rather than rising?

It is, but I suspect it peaked quite recently. It was certainly on an upward trend through the 2000s.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think I would be inclined to agree. It is also the case that cars are affordable to far younger drivers, who often don't necessarily have the maturity to make decisions correctly on the road.

I disagree.

IME the worst offenders are that special sort of fat fortysomething businessman in an Audi or BMW, or the bottle-blonde bottle-tan WAG in her Range Rover that is several feet wider than her driving ability.

It's never the kids doing 110mph on the M1 and it's never the kids sitting 2" off your back bumper on the A41 because they're considerably richer than yow.

The problem with many drivers is not naivete or inexperience, the problem is a combination of a mid-life crisis and an oversized sense of self-entitlement.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have spoken to younger drivers who have genuinely said "it doesn't matter if I have a crash, it just gets claimed on the insurance". Anyone who holds that view needs a lifetime ban.

A case for the driving age to be increased - at least to 18 perhaps with a minimum of 12 months instructed learning period by a qualified instructor, so a minimum age of 19 independent on the road in practice? Though it does have to be said that after peaking recently it seems driving is increasingly going back out of favour with young people.

How affordable are the insurance premiums these days for both very young male and female drivers?

 

[Polarbear]

I used to drive at between 75 & 80 mph on motorways in this country, but now tend to do around 65-70 as it's easier on fuel consumption. There's also less risk of being done for speeding if one sits at the lower level too..!!

For me, there are two issues that are inter-connected. One is safety and the other is enforcement.

Whilst modern cars may be deemed as being "safe" (and they generally are much safer than they were say 25 years ago), individual drivers are always an unknown variable. At higher speeds, stopping distances increase markedly and that brings into question the ability of both car & driver to safely stop from higher speeds, should something untoward happen.

The other issue is enforcement. With the current speed limit being 70 mph, many people will tend to do "just over" this, as they know there's not much chance of being caught. Raise the limit to 80 mph (as was proposed a few years back), and people will take that as a green light to drive at around 90 mph. Again, you then come back to the ability of car/driver to stop safely at those sorts of speed.

I'd personally be in favour of increasing the speed limit on motorways to 80 mph, but only on the proviso that this would be enforced more strictly that the present 70 mph limit seems to be - purely due to the issues outlined above.

 

[GB]

Spend enough time or do enough miles on the road and you will see that no group are particularly worse than any other...at least in my experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How affordable are the insurance premiums these days for both very young male and female drivers?

Not very, but all too often the bank of Mum and Dad is paying.

 

[Minilad]

Spend enough time or do enough miles on the road and you will see that no group are particularly worse than any other...at least in my experience.

Absolutely this
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How affordable are the insurance premiums these days for both very young male and female drivers?

Define affordable. The problem is a lot of people baulk at paying what they see as exorbitant premiums and end up driving without insurance at all. Not just young people either

 

[90019]

How affordable are the insurance premiums these days for both very young male and female drivers?

Not very.
If you've just passed your test at 17 or 18, you'd probably have to budget around £2k for insurance, if not more. Once you're past 21 it starts to get more reasonable, but still expensive.
The Volvo V40 I had a couple of years ago was £850 p/a despite being 22 at the time, and it was only the 1.8.
My 1.6 Golf is still costing me the sharp end of £500, while my 1.2 litre Polo is more reasonable at just under £300.

I'm sure there are plenty of young drivers out there fronting their insurance with a parent as the main driver because it's so expensive. You'll also find that a lot of young drivers with modified cars won't have declared the modifications to their insurer.

 

[TheNewNo2]

Speed does not kill, it's the change in speed which does. On a motorway, you're probably safer travelling at the traffic speed than at the speed limit.

In towns, I will admit I don't like 20 zones. That is not because it's slow, it's because it's a speed cars are not designed for. 30mph is generally comfortable in second or third gear, 20mph is generally too high in one gear and too low in another, and very difficult to stick too. In fact, 20mph driving is the best use for cruise control I've found - it's useless for motorways as you always need to speed up or slow down, but for sticking to a 20mph limit it's great.

 

[Domh245]

How affordable are the insurance premiums these days for both very young male and female drivers?

To give some actual figures, it costs £50 a week to insure me on my Dad's 2004 1.6l Vauxhall Meriva, (effectively £2.6k pa) and that is as an 18 year old with about 9 months since I passed my test. It is worth noting that the value quoted is with Admiral with a 'temporary' insurance sort of system. You ring them up and arrange a start date for the insurance and then they insure you for that week long period. You can also only do up to 44 weeks (or thereabouts). It makes sense for us because I'm away at uni for most of the year. If you go through a smaller insurance company, it is usually a lot higher! Equally, there are some insurance companies (for example AA) who won't insure younger drivers, as I found out when my mum tried to insure me on her Touran.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Speed does not kill, it's the change in speed which does. On a motorway, you're probably safer travelling at the traffic speed than at the speed limit.

I sort-of see this point; you are probably safer travelling either at the prevailing lorry or prevailing car speed. At precisely 70 you have to do a lot of extra manoeuvres. OTOH, if the 70 limit was strictly enforced, that would be yet safer.

In towns, I will admit I don't like 20 zones. That is not because it's slow, it's because it's a speed cars are not designed for. 30mph is generally comfortable in second or third gear, 20mph is generally too high in one gear and too low in another, and very difficult to stick too. In fact, 20mph driving is the best use for cruise control I've found - it's useless for motorways as you always need to speed up or slow down, but for sticking to a 20mph limit it's great.

Depends to some extent on your car, but if the gear you're using doesn't suit choose a lower one. I find in my petrol Vectra that the gear times 10 gives the comfortable cruise speed in that gear - 20mph+ in 2nd, 30mph+ in 3rd, 40mph+ in 4th then 5th for 50mph and above, with 1st only used for starting out from stationary (it's a 1.8 engine and quite torquey, so 1st is only necessary from a complete stop and can start out from a stop with almost no clutch).

 

[anme]

Modern drivers are no worse than drivers in bygone years are they?

Cars are much safer, braking, steering, crashworthyness etc.

But it's not about you. As the driver, you're a consenting adult and if you kill or horribly injure yourself, that's your choice.

It's about the other people that you kill and injure.

 

[richw]

Plus isn't car ownership actually declining amongst younger people rather than rising?

I think so, looking at my rugby club, all of the under 19s drove in my age (I'm 28 next week, so about 10 years ago) our current under 19s the majority do not drive, thus creating logistics problems for away games,

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think so, looking at my rugby club, all of the under 19s drove in my age (I'm 28 next week, so about 10 years ago) our current under 19s the majority do not drive, thus creating logistics problems for away games,

Yeah, I think your generation is somewhere around "peak youth car" if there is such a term. I'm 36, and my generation mostly learnt when they were 17, but then borrowed parents' cars, drove Union minibuses etc, I didn't actually own a car until I got my first graduate job at 22 and most people I know were the same. Your generation seem to have learnt from around 17 but also got cars very early, and far more of that age group had cars at university. We seem now to be moving back to the way we were - but without learning at all.

A good growth opportunity for t'railway there if it plays its cards right.

 

[richw]

Yeah, I think your generation is somewhere around "peak youth car" if there is such a term. I'm 36, and my generation mostly learnt when they were 17, but then borrowed parents' cars, drove Union minibuses etc, I didn't actually own a car until I got my first graduate job at 22 and most people I know were the same. Your generation seem to have learnt from around 17 but also got cars very early, and far more of that age group had cars at university. We seem now to be moving back to the way we were - but without learning at all.

A good growth opportunity for t'railway there if it plays its cards right.

Certainly agree with that, I had my own car when I was 17, as did most of my mates. We didn't go out drinking/clubbing much as we all ploughed all our money into cars. A social event was going for a drive and having a bbq on a beach somewhere, or going exploring somewhere.
The youngsters at the club now seem to be out drinking 3-4 nights a week minimum.
Priorities have seemingly changed or have 17-18 year olds been priced out of driving? Most of the young lads are taking their driving tests around 21-22 now,

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think high insurance is indeed pricing people out of driving when they think of what else they can spend it on - and maybe just putting a kid on the parents' insurance is also too expensive now. Interesting that most of the people you encounter are spending it on ale, though - drinking is also on the decline in young adults (maybe rugby clubs are living up to their tradition ). The money seems to be going on technology and the likes.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A lot of the time it is simple practicalities. Most university halls, for instance, no longer feature car parking, and even where they do there is insufficient car parking for everyone. Even in private housing you'll normally find a house is restricted to one or two parking permits, which isn't much use when there are six students living in it. And you can't use it if you're out on the pop, so there's little point having it.

Add in the cost of insurance, maintenance costs, and the costs of buying the thing in the first place: between the scrappage scheme and the rise of lease agreements for new cars, you simply don't see the £300 old bangers anymore. It's no wonder people don't drive, especially in London and the south east.

I'm in a similar position, I learned at 17 but when I divorced I gave the (joint) car to my ex as she needed it and I didn't. I can't really be chewed buying a new one. I'd rather spend the money on a holiday.

 

[90019]

Add in the cost of insurance, maintenance costs, and the costs of buying the thing in the first place: between the scrappage scheme and the rise of lease agreements for new cars, you simply don't see the £300 old bangers anymore. It's no wonder people don't drive, especially in London and the south east.

You do still get them, but they're not as plentiful nowadays.
I find that the problem now is that we're reaching the point where 10-15 year old cheap cars have lots of computers to go expensively wrong and write the car off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You do still get them, but they're not as plentiful nowadays.
I find that the problem now is that we're reaching the point where 10-15 year old cheap cars have lots of computers to go expensively wrong and write the car off.

Or the glut of small turbo diesel engines that if not maintained absolutely 100% perfectly[1] just don't last. The PSA (Peugeot/Citroen) 1.6 is the worst example of these (once the muck gets in the turbo supply pipes, you will keep eating turbos - if you have to replace one you almost might as well scrap the car), but I'm sure there are others. That engine is found in a lot of other manufacturers' cars too - Ford I think as one.

It's quite a change from the point we'd reached in the early to mid 2000s with medium sized normally aspirated fuel injected petrol engines that were essentially bombproof even if you let the oil turn to treacle.

[1] If I recall rightly, for that engine if you vacuum out the old oil (common practice even at main dealers) you leave muck in the sump that is then sucked into the turbo. You have to with that engine drop the oil traditionally using the drain plug, and I half recall you are recommended to flush it through with clean oil before refilling as well. So even if you take it to a reputable garage it won't necessarily be done right.

 

[90019]

I wouldn't touch a car with the 1.6HDi with a bargepole, because the turbos are made of chocolate and fail.

I've always erred towards petrol with my cars, because you get more car for your money and with the mileage I do, they tend to have less complicated engines in my price range, and a diesel doesn't offer much saving for the amount of time I'm likely to keep the car for.

 

[Oswyntail]

In my experience we have plenty of older drivers around with similar issues, though they tend to be more along the lines of 'I've been driving for 40 years, I know how to drive, therefore you can't teach me anything'......

And the worst of those are the ones with a company car that they only use at weekends (commuting to work by train, of course). "The wife", who drives quite competently during the week, is firmly in the passenger seat, as the balding, testosterone losing lump demonstrates how he has forgotten where the indicator switch is, what traffic lights are for, and what lane you should be in to turn left. The great blessing of not working is that you can do everything during the week, and so can avoid driving when the roads are clogged with these pests. (I suspect many of those driving at over 70 on the motorways are these too, having forgotten where the brake pedal is).

 

[RichmondCommu]

My eldest son is a German national and as such I have some experience of the autobahn network. In terms of speed it's not exactly a "free for all" as there are plenty of locations where speed is restricted but for the most part you can literally go as fast as you want. The autobahn network certainly has its fair share of congestion at times (Essen in particular comes to mind here) but for the most part the system seems to work well and the accident rate is low, although not as low as the accident rate over here in the UK. My son has recently bought himself a Porsche 911 and belting along in that at 120 mph (I wouldn't let him go any quicker than that with me in it) is quite something.

In terms of young people learning to drive / having access to cars, our grown up children have all learn't to drive and are very lucky in that they have access to a "pool car" paid for by my wife and I. However in my experience many young adults growing up in London (as our own children did) are not interested in learning to drive. However away from London where the most of my family live all my nephews and nieces and indeed their friends have all either learn't to drive or are in the process of doing so. Most of them are either living in the East Midllands / West Yorks / East Lancs where the train / bus network is pretty good but they would rather drive.

 

[TheNewNo2]

I learnt to drive when I was 17, but 12 years after passing my test I still don't own a car. I currently live on my own in London, so there's no need for anything but public transport. I will own a car at some point, but for now when I need one I can just hire one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I learnt to drive when I was 17, but 12 years after passing my test I still don't own a car. I currently live on my own in London, so there's no need for anything but public transport. I will own a car at some point, but for now when I need one I can just hire one.

If I lived in London I probably wouldn't own a car either. Car clubs provide them when needed, and you can hire one that suits that occasion (e.g. a van if shifting "stuff").

 

[BestWestern]

I'd personally be in favour of increasing the speed limit on motorways to 80 mph, but only on the proviso that this would be enforced more strictly that the present 70 mph limit seems to be - purely due to the issues outlined above.

The problem being that it would likely be viewed as a wasteful exercise. As you say, under the current 70mph limits it is sort of accepted that "about 80" is the norm, and you're relatively unlikely to get a tug for doing that speed. So why spend money simply making what is already the 'unofficial norm' official?
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Speed does not kill, it's the change in speed which does. On a motorway, you're probably safer travelling at the traffic speed than at the speed limit.

In towns, I will admit I don't like 20 zones. That is not because it's slow, it's because it's a speed cars are not designed for. 30mph is generally comfortable in second or third gear, 20mph is generally too high in one gear and too low in another, and very difficult to stick too. In fact, 20mph driving is the best use for cruise control I've found - it's useless for motorways as you always need to speed up or slow down, but for sticking to a 20mph limit it's great.

I dislike 20 zones also. It's a difficult exercise to stick at that speed; most decent drivers can manage a steady 30ish by 'feel', but 20 requires frequent speedo checking. The blanket use of such low limits is, in my experience, totally counter productive, as a vast majority see it as a nuisance and completely disregard it. There appears barely any attempt to enforce the limits either, making the whole thing nothing more than an exercise in erecting signage. A far better policy would be to employ the limit only where it it justified, eg schools, shopping areas and so on, and use a combination of road planning and enforcement to back it up.