Split ticket - Connecting train delayed - Court action (Sowerby Bridge - Birmingham journey)

[Mickyb]

Good afternoon, opinions please.

All day single - Sowerby Bridge 06.06 to Manc Pic 07.15 (Northern Rail)
Advanced - Manc Pic 07.27 to Birmingham NS 09.15 (Xcountry)

Northern Rail train delayed, arrived Manc Pic 07.36, so I boarded the next avaliable train my Xcountry on the same route at 08.05.

Ticket inspector told me to buy a new ticket, however I refused as I believe my ticket was valid under NRCOT section 9.4

'Where you are using a Ticket valid on a specific train service or train services (such as an ‘advance’ Ticket) and you miss a service because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty.'

I've recieved a court summons for travelling without a ticket. Am I in the right or wrong?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A quick Google would suggest the minimum connection time at Picc is 10 minutes therefore yes you are correct.

Do you have evidence of tickets held and what precisely you did?

 

[Mickyb]

A quick Google would suggest the minimum connection time at Picc is 10 minutes therefore yes you are correct.

Do you have evidence of tickets held and what precisely you did?

Hi yes I do. The xcountry employee argued as it was 2 different train companies it doesnt apply as it was 2 seperate journeys, however I dont see any of that in black and white.

 

[30907]

I can get NRE to show a route changing at Salford Crescent and Picc in the May online timetable, identical with the December PDF tables.
I would be inclined to write back politely requesting that the summons be withdrawn as it is based on a misunderstanding of the NRCoT, and informing them that you will plead not guilty and that your defence will be that you had a valid combination of tickets.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would agree that you are correct. The minimum interchange time at Piccadilly (somewhat surprisingly actually) is ten minutes so you had a valid itinerary (though I assume you must have changed at somewhere like Salford Crescent as there are no direct Sowerby Bridge to Piccadilly trains) therefore the ticket you held was valid to be used on the next available service.

You have correctly identified the provision of the NRCoT which allows you to continue your journey on the next available train and, as you say, it makes no difference regarding whether it is two different companies or not (see NRCoT 14.1). Indeed there is an internal document which makes this very clear:

Q: Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?
A: In certain cases, yes but the following principles must apply:


1). Start of the Journey. It is the passenger’s responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the first train. If they miss it due to problems parking, taxi not turning up etc, they must buy a new ticket;


2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay.


This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held. Examples are:



Included: are passengers travelling on valid:

• Through domestic or international tickets; e.g. Brighton - Scarborough route “+ XC & Connections”;
• Through rail & partner tickets for which there is a through bus, tube, ferry or metro fare, e.g. Zone U12 - Leeds, Wisbech Coach - York; Ryde Pier - Hull, etc;
• Combination of domestic rail-only tickets (e.g. rail season ticket Skipton-Leeds plus Advance ticket Leeds-Peterborough; or adjoining Advance tickets)
• Combination of domestic rail & partner tickets (e.g. Brighton - Zone U12 plus Advance ticket London Euston - Manchester, or Advance ticket Bristol Parkway - London Paddington plus Zone U1 single ticket plus Advance ticket London Kings Cross to Hull)
• Combination of Eurostar tickets into the UK and then either advance purchase tickets from London Terminals or “London Intnl CIV” or “London Eurostar CIV”.

You situation is covered under "Once the journey has begun" and your situation features within the examples as the third bullet.

I would therefore reply to the body that has issued the summons politely but firmly pointing out which tickets you held, the journey you made and point them to the NRCoT which shows you can use more than one ticket for a journey and therefore request that they withdraw the summons as it has been incorrectly issued. If you feel that you would need help with drafting something you're welcome to post your first draft and I'm sure various members will be willing to offer feedback.

 

[maniacmartin]

Hi yes I do. The xcountry employee argued as it was 2 different train companies it doesnt apply as it was 2 seperate journeys, however I dont see any of that in black and white.

The employee was wrong. Using multiple tickets for one journey is covered in section 14 of the NRCoT. Specifically 14.1 in your case.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I would quote the following condition, which makes no reference to the connecting train companies being the same.

9.4. Where you are using a Ticket valid on a specific train service or train services (such as an ‘advance’ Ticket) and you miss a service because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty.

 

[185]

Hi yes I do. The xcountry employee argued as it was 2 different train companies.

As mentioned above, that's rubbish anyway however do note - if it was prior to 01st March 2020, then both operators were owned by (DB) Arriva Plc - which makes Crosscountry's argument *even less valid* than utterly invalid.

 

[yorkie]

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-of-number-of-tickets-held-mythbuster.198338/ ; there is a PDF copy of the staff briefing sent to all Train Companies.

You are entitled to:

1. complete the journey covered by your tickets
2. claim compensation from the company that caused the delay (in this case Northern)

I have approached XC for comment ( https://twitter.com/RailUKForums/status/1255462665692033024 )

@CrossCountryUK https://railforums.co.uk/threads/split-ticket-connecting-train-delayed-court-action.203895/
a customer was delayed by @northernassist connecting train and you are prosecuting them for this delay; can someone please ensure the charges are dropped?

I am sure the threat of prosecution is a mistake and misunderstanding on XC's part

If they do not relent, there are various options open to you. Please contact me.

 

[Realfish]

I guess that this will have been handed on by Cross Country and presumably Transport Investigations (TIL) are now the prosecuting authority. Expect TIL's next step to relent, for a £ price.

 

[Marton]

I guess that this will have been handed on by Cross Country and presumably Transport Investigations (TIL) are now the prosecuting authority. Expect TIL's next step to relent, for a £ price.

The price should be theirs with compensation to you for distress and time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hi yes I do. The xcountry employee argued as it was 2 different train companies it doesnt apply as it was 2 seperate journeys, however I dont see any of that in black and white.

There are some quite visible XC guards who are bad at their job, sounds like you found one.

What beggars belief is the Prosecutions Department being that incompetent.

Edit: Ah, it's TIL. Sadly they are that incompetent.

 

[ukkid]

Since the summons has been issued, I would also write to the court pleading not guilty because their is no case due to the reasons outlined above, and you expect the prosecution to withdraw the case.


That might prompt (Db) Arriva and their agents to sort the matter out more quickly

 

[Mickyb]

Wow thank you all! Ive returned the summons pleading not guilty, hoping the court sides with me. Ill let you guys know the outcome and hopefully anybody else will stand up. (Several people on that train bought new tickets!)

 

[Haywain]

Wow thank you all! Ive returned the summons pleading not guilty, hoping the court sides with me. Ill let you guys know the outcome and hopefully anybody else will stand up. (Several people on that train bought new tickets!)

Do you plan on attending the hearing?

 

[ainsworth74]

Wow thank you all! Ive returned the summons pleading not guilty, hoping the court sides with me. Ill let you guys know the outcome and hopefully anybody else will stand up. (Several people on that train bought new tickets!)

I would strongly advise you to contact the prosecuting company directly before the hearing (the paperwork should say who laid the prosecution) whilst I believe that you should win any case I think it would be better for everyone if this matter was resolved prior to a court hearing.

If you do not decide to make contact with the prosecuting company before the hearing then you absolutely must attend any hearings that are held. Magistrates are unlikely to know the argument you are making without you to at least present it in part to them.

 

[island]

Whilst it would have been advisable to have had your onward connecting ticket endorsed by the guard on the first train or the booking office at Manchester Piccadilly, this is not required and the internal and external publications of the train companies suggest that your actions were acceptable and no case should have been raised.

I do hope you obtain a sensible resolution.

 

[38Cto15E]

All the best Mickyb and let us all know the outcome.

 

[Mickyb]

I would strongly advise you to contact the prosecuting company directly before the hearing (the paperwork should say who laid the prosecution) whilst I believe that you should win any case I think it would be better for everyone if this matter was resolved prior to a court hearing.

If you do not decide to make contact with the prosecuting company before the hearing then you absolutely must attend any hearings that are held. Magistrates are unlikely to know the argument you are making without you to at least present it in part to them.

Ive already sent them 2 communications explaining my case, and then I recieved the court summons, so I think its past that.

 

[yorkie]

We had a similar case a while back.

XC didn't listen then and they won't listen now. I know not everyone in the company is happy at the way they behave but the culture from the top isn't going to change any time soon.

I have offered my assistance in both cases.

@mjckyb I am free from about 2.30pm today if you would like to call me (or I can call you).

 

[Brissle Girl]

yorkie, I presume you got no response to your twitter post? Looking at their account they are much too busy doing quizzes to deal with customer queries.

 

[ainsworth74]

Looking at their account they are much too busy doing quizzes to deal with customer queries.

To be honest it wouldn't surprise me if they've been told to steer well clear of any matters relating to prosecutions. In the event that an individual contacts them the most they've probably been told to say is to contact "this number...".

 

[furlong]

A failure to accept a valid ticket may put the company in breach of its franchise agreement, which would be a matter for the DfT to investigate, and an attempt to sell a new ticket when no money was due could be a breach of consumer law, which is the sort of thing the ORR is supposed to be investigating routinely and stamping out with the aid of its ability to prosecute train companies.

 

[gray1404]

The OP may wish to consider contacting their MP. What is the date of the hearing?

 

[ainsworth74]

A failure to accept a valid ticket may put the company in breach of its franchise agreement, which would be a matter for the DfT to investigate, and an attempt to sell a new ticket when no money was due could be a breach of consumer law, which is the sort of thing the ORR is supposed to be investigating routinely and stamping out with the aid of its ability to prosecute train companies.

Of course odds of either actually caring let alone doing anything about are pretty much functionally zero.

 

[Realfish]

Ive already sent them 2 communications explaining my case, and then I recieved the court summons, so I think its past that.

Presumably, with the summons, you will also have received a copy of the witness statement from the Train Manager, on which XC (or TIL) will rely in court.

From what has been posted, it is puzzling to understand why the prosecution is proceeding - you were entitled to be carried on the next service. Is there anything in his / her (?) statement that might throw light on why they are pressing on?

Building on 'Island's' post (#17) and to tie up all of the loose ends to defend the charge, I wonder if your ticket for the first part of your journey was stamped to identify the service you used from Sowerby Bridge? If so it will be useful, but recognising that often tickets are simply endorsed by pen with a squiggle.

Also '30907' (post #3), points out that this first part of the journey would be an indirect service requiring a change along the route to get to Piccadilly, is that so? If so where were you delayed - on the first or second train*?

It will also help you see off XC / TIL if you can get corroboration of the late running of whichever train was delayed*. There are records and people on here might have access to the historic databases and possibly be able to do that for you - but we don't know the date of your journey. Note also that timetables have changed in recent months and show a different (later) planned arrival time at Piccadilly (07:20) on the service you used. A 07:20 arrival would have made it difficult for you to catch the Birmingham service. Are you sure that you were due in at 07:15?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Unless the summons is withdrawn, and you have that in writing from XC, you do need to attend court on the day and time stated.

On the day, if it comes to that, speak to the prosecutor ask them to withdraw the case there and then. If they refuse the matter will be called on and you will not get a resolution on the day. There will be a pre-trial hearing and a date will be set for a trial. You will be asked for details of your defence and the prosecution will be asked to detail their case. You will then go away until the day of the trial when the matter will be considered. Before then, negotiations can take place with the train company to persuade them to drop the case.

Please post back here whatever the result - even more so if it does go to trial. You will get good support and advice from the forum.

 

[island]

Of course odds of either actually caring let alone doing anything about are pretty much functionally zero.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[packermac]

When I first read this thread I was fully in agreement with the OP. However for some reason I though about this last night and having read clause 9.4 again I believe it is not so clear cut.
I am sure one of the fare experts can confirm the intent of 9.4 but just reading it could be read that the OP would only be valid to travel on a later train if the connecting ticket was also Advance Ticket. Otherwise surely passengers could turn up late (say by car or bus) and claim a connecting train was late or cancelled.

 

[Hadders]

When I first read this thread I was fully in agreement with the OP. However for some reason I though about this last night and having read clause 9.4 again I believe it is not so clear cut.
I am sure one of the fare experts can confirm the intent of 9.4 but just reading it could be read that the OP would only be valid to travel on a later train if the connecting ticket was also Advance Ticket. Otherwise surely passengers could turn up late (say by car or bus) and claim a connecting train was late or cancelled.

Condition 9.4 says that if you miss your train because a connecting train is delayed you may travel on the next train provided by that train company. This is also confirmed internally to staff in the Advanced Fares FAQs which is in the Fares & Ticketing Guide section of this forum.

There is no requirement to only use an Advance ticket. Missing the train because of a delay to a connecting bus or car journey is not covered.