split ticket problems

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tony_mac

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I had a return portion of a lichfield to Liverpool off peak return ( no break off journey restrictions), so I bought a Stafford to London ticket.

Virgin train manager has just told me that I must buy a new ticket to Stafford. When I refused he told me that police will be waiting for me at Euston.

Might be interesting!
 
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nedchester

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I had a return portion of a lichfield to Liverpool off peak return ( no break off journey restrictions), so I bought a Stafford to London ticket.

Virgin train manager has just told me that I must buy a new ticket to Stafford. When I refused he told me that police will be waiting for me at Euston.

Might be interesting!
Oh dear! This the grip might be wasting police time. Problem is they may be wasting your as well.

Of course the idiot could be bluffing......
 

tony_mac

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He has been to see me and says I can get off at Stafford and wait an hour, or buy a new ticket. Again, I refused.
He then threatened me with buying an anytime single at Euston ( after accusing me of fraud).

I could do without the stress, but don't see the point in buying another ticket.
 

John @ home

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I know you have the experience and knowledge to deal with this well, Tony. Good luck!

Remember to take full notes, even if the "notes" are posts here from your mobile.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I'm sure you have access to the Regulations in respect of travel with multiple tickets. But remember that the Police will only be interested if an Offence has been committted, and S.5.3.c would require you to both fail to pay the fair and fail to give you Name and Address.
A claim of a S.5.3.a Offence would be the dispute over the travel on 2 tickets not being valid.

As John @ Home rightly says, gather Evidence!
 

General Zod

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Sounds to me that even if you showed him the relevant paragraph from the NCoC he would still challenge the validity of your ticket.
Def keep all informed of your "progress." I would like to know the grip's points of argument in this case. Did he say why he thinks your tickets are not valid ?
 
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tony_mac

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Because the train must stop at the station, and this train does not stop at Lichfield.

He agrees I can change at Stafford, or it's fine to buy a new ticket from Liverpool to Stafford.

He claims that he knows what the conditions say and he is definitely right.
 

General Zod

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What if you had got off the train at Stafford and then got back on again ? A pain in the backside yes, but perhaps he would have had less of a leg to stand on. You've traveled from Liverpool to Stafford on a valid ticket, surely ?!!!!!!
 

Brucey

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perhaps he would have had less of a leg to stand on.
He has no leg to stand on anyway (well, I hope he actually has legs, otherwise there may be problems dispatching the train). That ticket combination is perfectly valid.

I'd stay put and let him call the police or whoever. You have valid tickets so have nothing to worry about.
 

Ferret

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He has been to see me and says I can get off at Stafford and wait an hour, or buy a new ticket. Again, I refused.
He then threatened me with buying an anytime single at Euston ( after accusing me of fraud).

I could do without the stress, but don't see the point in buying another ticket.
It's all perfectly valid. Has he asked for your name and address details?

 

Ivo

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This is utterly ridiculous. What would the average passenger do? Fear for their lives and thus pay up? This is the kind of thing we would normally associate with the likes of FCC and SE...

On the Lichfield return you are effectively stopping short - that is all. Unless specifically stated in any restriction, what is wrong with that?

I have to say though, I am almost impressed that this character knows of Lichfield. Almost. (There should be no excuse for him not to, to be honest.)
 

Brucey

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It is for this reason that I no longer present both tickets when splitting (assuming the train stops where I'm changing tickets). Before the split point, show the first ticket. After the split point, show the second ticket. Avoids any hassle or suggestions from staff that I am trying to avoid paying my fare.
 

John @ home

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It may be helpful to have this on your mobile.
C. USE OF TICKETS

19. Using a combination of tickets

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf
 

tony_mac

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I think his argument is that I am changing from one ticket to the other at Lichfield.
Of course, we don't go through Lichfield City anyway.
 

General Zod

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It is for this reason that I no longer present both tickets when splitting (assuming the train stops where I'm changing tickets). Before the split point, show the first ticket. After the split point, show the second ticket. Avoids any hassle or suggestions from staff that I am trying to avoid paying my fare.
It's for the same reason that I only split tickets when I physically have to get off at the split station and change trains for the 2nd half of the 'split' journey. There are still too many uninformed staff for me to be confident enough to carry out a split ticket journey on the same train.
 

Ivo

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I don't buy the Lichfield stop excuse. It is believable for that to be the reason - but it is still a pathetic one. A TM that doesn't know how splitting and short starts work shouldn't be a TM.

It's for the same reason that I only split tickets when I physically have to get off at the split station and change trains for the 2nd half of the 'split' journey. There are still too many uninformed staff for me to be confident enough to carry out a split ticket journey on the same train.
That shouldn't be necessary. I have never needed to change when splitting; I have done one train on four splits before now. A bit of surprise on the part of the TMs, yes - but otherwise, they ddin't bat an eyelid.

If you know what you are doing, and know to say should an untrained Guard (or idiot as in this case) come along, you shouldn't need to change.
 

Ferret

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I just have one point to make in partial defence of this Guard - it's the training (specifically the lack of it) that's at the root cause here. Using language such as 'idiot' isn't necessarily what I'd call correct.
 

Ivo

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I agree - it probably isn't "correct". However, without meaning to sound harsh or "stuck-up", or similar, what evidence is there that conclusively proves that the training is the problem? How do we know that the TM has not been advised of these rules?

Whatever happens, I accept that the term "idiot" may have been a tad too strong.
 

sheff1

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I just have one point to make in partial defence of this Guard - it's the training (specifically the lack of it) that's at the root cause here.
The point is, though, this person has said he knows what the conditions say and is 'definitely right'.

If, as you suggest. it is lack of training which is the problem why is the guard making these clearly incorrect statements? If he doesn't know the rules due to lack of training he should give the passenger the benefit of the doubt.
 

Jeremy B

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It is for this reason that I no longer present both tickets when splitting (assuming the train stops where I'm changing tickets). Before the split point, show the first ticket. After the split point, show the second ticket. Avoids any hassle or suggestions from staff that I am trying to avoid paying my fare.
I would think that unless you proffered the 2nd ticket without waiting to be asked on the 2nd leg of your journey when the ticket inspecting person arrived you would set yourself up as appearing to be a possible fare dodger & defeat your objective in the first place. You never did state in your post if you did present it automatically or had to be asked for it plus what any reaction to this was.
 

Ferret

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I agree - it probably isn't "correct". However, without meaning to sound harsh or "stuck-up", or similar, what evidence is there that conclusively proves that the training is the problem? How do we know that the TM has not been advised of these rules?

Whatever happens, I accept that the term "idiot" may have been a tad too strong.
I can only go on my own experience of the training offered on tickets by Virgin.....and the school report says it's a 'could do better'
 

table38

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Worse than that, you do get some funny looks when you change seats on a split ticket if the reservations are in the same coach :)
 

Bedpan

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If Virgin were a bit more generous with their delay repay scheme, I think that I'd have got off at Stafford and waited an hour as instructed, and then chanced my arm with a claim due to arriving in London an hour late.
 

Bedpan

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I can't think that anybody could be provided more constructive suport than [email protected] on post 14.

In a situation like that experienced by the OP, sitting there wondering what is going to happen when you reach your destination makes for an extremely stressful and truly horrible journey.
 
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