Split Ticketing and condition 19c

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by stevetay3, 6 May 2015.

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  1. stevetay3

    stevetay3 Member

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    Hi all. If i catch a direct service from Reading to Plymouth, Would a split at Westbury using the following tickets be valid.

    SVR. Reading - Westbury
    FOSW Rover Westbury - Plymouth

    Condition 16c says the train need not call at split point station if one ticket is a season, The thing is the fast services go via the avoiding line at Westbury and not through the station, Is this ok

    Thanks. Steve
     
  2. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    For some stations, this is a bit of a grey area. However, in the case of Westbury I think you would have trouble convincing anyone that the avoiding line is part of Westbury station. Looking at the train, Westbury isn't even listed as a timing point.

    I don't think your ticket split is valid on such trains
     
  3. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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    The avoiding lines are not shown separately on the FGW Network Map so I think it is reasonable to assume that all trains between Newbury and Taunton are considered to pass through Westbury.

    I don't think there is any requirement for passengers to have to search through working timetables and Quail Maps to work out the exact route a train will take.

    If you were splitting at Weston-Super-Mare on a fast train that might be slightly more dubious.
     
  4. jkdd77

    jkdd77 Member

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    I think this is analogous to a Didcot season/ non-season split on non-stopping trains using the avoiding lines, which is generally considered, including by FGW themselves, to be valid, and hence I think that this would be valid.
     
  5. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Weston-super-Mare is clearly a separate line, similar to Northampton, with so such a ticket should not be assumed to be valid (though in practice may well be accepted; I'd suggest asking permission first).

    Didcot is clearly passed on non-stop trains; there doesn't have to be a platform face on the platforms! Clearly this would be valid without question and there is much evidence to back this up.

    Westbury is a grey area though. I'd suggest asking FGW for their view on this.
     
  6. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    I have used this split several times without any problems.
     
  7. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    That map btw is hilarious. It lists every station on the Borderlands line between Wrexham and Hawarden - but then doesn't show Shotton, the interchange with the main line, even though there is room for it! It's a First Great Western Map on which Buckenham (Norfolk), Prees, Yorton, Brigg, Kirton Lindsey, Broomfleet, New Clee, Shawford and Elton & Orston are named, but on which Bramley (Hants) and Mortimer are not, even though there's loads of room to, trains serve there regularly and they are FGW trains!!!!
     
  8. 158801

    158801 Member

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    So could I use an Annual season ticket from Reading to Swindon and an Off Peak Return from Didcot to Plymouth and catch a train that went direct (via Newbury & Westbury) ?

    As far as I am aware there is no requirement for the train to pass through the station where the tickets change over
     
  9. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Yes, because Didcot to Plymouth is permitted via Reading and Newbury. The season ticket does not come into the equation in this case.

    If the train did not pass through the station where the tickets change over, how would the tickets "together cover the entire journey" (wording of Condition 19)? Of course the train needs to pass the change-over station.

    In your previous example, if Didcot to Plymouth were not permitted via Reading, your combination would not be valid via Newbury, but would be valid via Swindon.
     
  10. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    I agree with your interpretation, but previous experience suggests that on the forum we are in a minority.
     
  11. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    If the train passes through the station then I see no problem (all through lines have platforms at Didcot Parkway), but if you refer to the "Didcot Avoiding Lines", some might say that the clue is in the name....

    Westbury station is as far from the avoiding lines as Redhill is from the Quarry lines, about 0.25 miles.
     
  12. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    Assuming that Didcot to Plymouth is not valid via Reading (I haven't checked), wouldn't one be travelling without a ticket from Reading to Taunton?
     
  13. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    To avoid any issues, save encountering a TM who denies 19(c) applies to Rovers (had one say that to me recently), and to appease the HHF's of this world, then the OP could just buy a SVR London Terminals - Bruton (route: Via Newbury). Same price as the equivalent ticket to Westbury.
     
  14. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    I love the sentiment, but not the apostrophe <D
     
  15. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Luckily, you don't have to in this case. If you say the avoiding line is not part of Westbury station, you reason as follows:

    An off peak return between Reading and Westbury is valid for break of journey anywhere along a valid route.
    WE is a valid map for a journey from Reading to Westbury (and vice versa).
    This allows the journey Reading Group-Newbury-Westbury Group.
    If someone was to travel between Newbury and Westbury Group following this map without doubling back through any stations or passing through a station which is a routeing point, or part of one, en route, there are a number of ways to do it.

    Newbury-...-Pewsey-Westbury
    Newbury-...-Pewsey-Frome-Wesbury
    Newbury-...-Pewsey-Frome-Bruton-Westbury
    Newbury-...-Pewsey-Bruton-Westbury
    Newbury-...-Pewsey-Bruton-Frome-Westbury

    I haven't checked that there are trains you could use for all of these journeys. My point is that you can switch to the rover as your train passes through Bruton, and not worry about any of this.

    If, on the other hand, you assert that a train which uses the avoiding line passes through Westbury station, you can switch from one to the other there.

    The only set of assumptions I can see on which you would have a problem would be if you assert that Westbury station includes the avoiding line for some purposes, but not others. I can't think why anyone would do this, though.
     
  16. reb0118

    reb0118 Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I tend to agree with you. The s above is clearly plural so no possessive apostrophe is required -however, you could argue that the apostrophe is required because HHF is a contraction of Hairy Handed Fool - I am not convinced by this though.

    Back on topic, in the Didcot and Westbury examples above, I would tend to accept the combination of tickets, esp. if asked prior to, or close to, boarding.
     
  17. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    From the point of view of what booking engines see, the data in ATOC's "Master Station Names" file (downloadable as part of the timetable data at http://data.atoc.org/) deems, in a similar way to Didcot North Junction and Didcot East Junction being part of Didcot station, Heywood Road Junction and Fairwood Junction (either end of the Westbury avoiding line) to be part of Westbury station.

    So to booking engines, trains using the Westbury avoiding line (as well as trains using the Westbury East Loop, which are also timed at Heywood Road Junction) will appear to pass through Westbury station.
     
  18. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    In dozens and dozens of journeys, the only issues I've had were with a few XC guards who didn't know about Condition 19(c). Never a question over the precise tracks used either on purchasing or presenting tickets - as well there shouldn't be as there's no way of knowing whether the train you're on will go through the station or on the avoiding lines!

    Simply reading Condition 19 doesn't make it clear cut to me. "Cover the entire journey" can be read as meaning "join to form a journey from A to C" instead of "have validity on every mile of route used".

    I agree that in practice it certainly has the latter interpretation, but this isn't unambiguous to the ley reader. Indeed, previous discussion suggests that in BR days the former interpretation was closer (certainly in less extreme cases, e.g. Northampton on the WCML).
     
  19. stevetay3

    stevetay3 Member

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    I made this trip in reverse last Monday,on passing Westbury on the avoider 1 did wonder that this may be a grey area. This is why I asked you guys for an opinion on this. I actually traveled from Liskerd to Reading,and the train manager appeared quite quickly and did not question my combination of tickets,and was quite happy for me to upgrade to 1st and very nice it was in one of the recently rebuilt coaches. Thanks for all the response to my question.
     
  20. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Would that not have to be H'H'F's though?
     
  21. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I can see where you are coming from. I find Old Timer's arguments most intriguing and not one I have encountered before.

    That said, a literal interpretation of the condition imo still implies that the whole route would need to be covered, but I appreciate that different interpretations may be derived.
     
  22. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    I have just had a thought here based on a real - life experience I had last October.

    I was travelling on one of the top of the hour departures from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley. Normally, this runs non-stop to York. However, on that occasion due to earlier disruption and a cancellation of one of the Leeds services, the train made an additional call at Doncaster i.e routed on to the track that has platforms intead of passing through on the avoiding lines in the middle.

    The hypothetical scenario would be this: Would a London - Doncaster season, combined with a non-Advance ticket Doncaster - Edinburgh, be valid on the top of the hour departures that normally has the first calling point York, with the train normally being routed on the middle pair of tracks at Doncaster when passing through?

    In peace

    Adam
     
  23. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Yes, of course.
     
  24. jkdd77

    jkdd77 Member

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    If, as appears to be the case, both NRE and TOC online journey planners show a Reading- Plymouth journey as being routed 'via Westbury', and the NRE network map makes no distinction between Westbury station and the avoiding line, then, in my view, the passenger is entitled to assume that the train goes via Westbury.
     
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