Split ticketing rules?

[1955LR]

Yesterday ,26/07//2024, I made a return trip from Leominster to Llandudno , purchased with split tickets , using the this Forum site . All 3 were Anytime Day Returns splitting at Craven Arms, & Gobowen.

When at Llandudno I was ready to return before my planned timing so I checked at the ticket office if there was an earlier service.

As I understand the service needs to stop for passengers at the split points, I mentioned this. I was told by the TFW staff member that the train did not need to stop there only pass through. I stated that I believed this to be incorrect, using the tickets I had purchased . I was assured I was wrong. Is this the case?

 

[Merseysider]

If one of the tickets is a season, zonal or rover/ranger type ticket then the train doesn’t need to stop.

With point to point tickets such as yours the train would indeed need to stop at the split point(s).

 

[jfollows]

National Rail Conditions of Travel 14.2 at https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf
You are right.

14. Using a Combination of Tickets
14.1 Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets.
14.2 Unless Condition 14.1 applies, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use Call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.
14.3 Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to Call at that station for your combination to be valid.

 

[furlong]

Under current rules, the trains must stop there. Under the original post-privatisation rules it was sufficient that at least one train from the train company you were using stopped there (as a way of making sure the train company you were using would receive some revenue from the tickets). That was later tightened up, but it's possible that some areas of the railway still use the former rule in practice. You are entitled to rely upon any information you are given, but would be wise to think how you would prove it if challenged - as a minimum note the name on the employee's badge, but better, ask directly what you should say if you encounter someone who disagrees and they'll sometimes give you something in writing or volunteer contact details.

 

[1955LR]

As it turned out, there were earlier train(s) for which did stop at the split points so I had no reservation using them . I was actually given a print out of this & I wonder that if 14.2 had not been met, would it be sufficient defence if challenged ,see attached. The journey in the event was delayed , by 19 mins , for which I have claimed Delay Repay and have be paid 25% of the total ticket price

 

[Watershed]

As it turned out, there were earlier train(s) for which did stop at the split points so I had no reservation using them . I was actually given a print out of this & I wonder that if 14.2 had not been met, would it be sufficient defence if challenged ,see attached. The journey in the event was delayed , by 19 mins , for which I have claimed Delay Repay and have be paid 25% of the total ticket price

Legally speaking, if you were told by a member of staff that your tickets were valid on that earlier itinerary, you would not be committing any offence by following the itinerary.

The fact you have a print-out would help lend credence to your account, although of course there is always a possibility of the guard taking exception and not believing you.

Having the confirmation of validity in writing would be best; the second best would be to make a discreet voice recording - appreciate some might view this as distasteful, but it's legal, would protect you from a potential prosecution and if you can't get anything in writing it may be the next best alternative.

The last option, which I'd not suggest solely relying on, would be to write down the name and description of the person you spoke to.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presume the majority of TfW services from Shrewsbury to Leominster on the Marches line do actually call intermediately at Craven Arms?

 

[Watershed]

Presume the majority of TfW services from Shrewsbury to Leominster on the Marches line do actually call intermediately at Craven Arms?

Most but certainly not all - see here for a list of trains next Wednesday calling at Shrewsbury and then Leominster, listed by departure or passing time at Craven Arms.

17 such trains call but 6 run through non-stop.

 

[1955LR]

Thanks for the responses, its good to my understanding is correct.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, Leominster->Craven Arms = £11.10 (SDR), Craven Arms->Gobowen = £18.90 (SDR), Gobowen->Llandudno = £26.00 (SDR), total = £56.00 (all these 'SDR's are Anytime Day Returns) compared with £71.70 for an unrestricted Off Peak Return through from Leominster->Llandudno.

Take it that Craven Arms is the optimal split point, price wise, for a reasonably flexible day return itinerary, noting however, as @Watershed has confirmed above, that not everything on the Marches line does actually call there.

 

[jamiearmley]

I found the below interesting:

Having the confirmation of validity in writing would be best; the second best would be to make a discreet voice recording - appreciate some might view this as distasteful, but it's legal, would protect you from a potential prosecution and if you can't get anything in writing it may be the next best alternative.

I totally get the reasoning behind it.

However, having thought about it - (and know that my own approach is to always print a new itinerary, always sign, date and print employee number on said itinerary, and add additional specific notes authorising travel on specific or general services /operators : and this is given to all who need it without being asked) - if I noticed I was being filmed or recorded without first having been asked/informed, I would withdraw gracefully, verbally withdrawing all and any implied or specific permissions, and would refuse to engage further.

I wish more of my colleagues took my approach to ensure that onward journeys were trouble free, but we are where we are I guess.

 

[Watershed]

I found the below interesting:

I totally get the reasoning behind it.

However, having thought about it - (and know that my own approach is to always print a new itinerary, always sign, date and print employee number on said itinerary, and add additional specific notes authorising travel on specific or general services /operators : and this is given to all who need it without being asked) - if I noticed I was being filmed or recorded without first having been asked/informed, I would withdraw gracefully, verbally withdrawing all and any implied or specific permissions, and would refuse to engage further.

I wish more of my colleagues took my approach to ensure that onward journeys were trouble free, but we are where we are I guess.

Completely understand where you're coming from, but when in public you have to consider anything you say as potentially being recorded.

You'll be on CCTV most if not all of the time, and someone could have a phone in their pocket making an audio recording and you'd be none the wiser.

Given that increasing proportions of rail staff now wear bodycams which continuously record the last minute or so, I think that staff are hardly in a position to complain if passengers do what is effectively the same in return.

So - although in your case I am sure it hardly needs pointing out - you shouldn't tell passengers anything you wouldn't put your name to in writing.

So, Leominster->Craven Arms = £11.10 (SDR), Craven Arms->Gobowen = £18.90 (SDR), Gobowen->Llandudno = £26.00 (SDR), total = £56.00 (all these 'SDR's are Anytime Day Returns) compared with £71.70 for an unrestricted Off Peak Return through from Leominster->Llandudno.

Take it that Craven Arms is the optimal split point, price wise, for a reasonably flexible day return itinerary, noting however, as @Watershed has confirmed above, that not everything on the Marches line does actually call there.

Well, taking out the Craven Arms split would afford greater flexibility but it is a bit more expensive (£33.70 as far as Gobowen, vs £30.00 for the Craven Arms split). It's a question of price vs flexibility.