Split Tickets and Delay Repay

[Aictos]

I've a question regarding this subject and I will give a example involving three services!

Passenger A has booked a return on a Saturday from St Albans to Birmingham and has decided to split their tickets by going via Bedford and Bletchley using the Marston Vale I won't go into detail too much as I don't want to make it too complicated.

Now if for example the train from Birmingham to Bletchley was delayed on route and bearing in mind the journey planner gave a five minute connection at Bletchley which will not not happen, I know delay repay kicks in after 15 minutes however as the next service is a hour later which means the service they were going to get from Bedford to St Albans is now much later..

Can they claim delay repay for the entire journey seeing as due to one service being delayed that then had a knock on effect on the connections they were booked to make so got to their final destination over a hour late or is it the case that they can only claim for the delayed Birmingham to Bletchley leg?

I believe they should be entitled to claim for the entire journey but as we're discussing split ticketing I thought I ask to see what the common view was?

 

[robbeech]

Providing there is at least the minimum connection time where you change trains then yes you’d be entitled to delay repay on the entire journey based on the time you arrive at your destination.

 

[Aictos]

Providing there is at least the minimum connection time where you change trains then yes you’d be entitled to delay repay on the entire journey based on the time you arrive at your destination.

That's what I thought, the other thing as well I was wondering about is if the Birmingham train is running say 5 to 7 minutes late and is booked into Platform 4 - The Marston Vale service for whatever reason is signalled to use Platform 6, would they not hold that service to allow for connections to be made or is it a case of tough luck you need to get the next one?

I guess the service wouldn't be held and as long as you have proof that the booking engine stated the connection time then you would be entitled to delay repay for the entire journey based on the time you get to your destination.

 

[yorkie]

....would they not hold that service to allow for connections to be made or is it a case of tough luck you need to get the next one?

They would not hold it, preferring people to claim Delay Repay instead.

To be fair it would cost them a lot more than the value of Delay Repay claims to hold the train to Birmingham and there is no prospect of that happening. The branch train is a more realistic prospect to be held.

...as long as you have proof that the booking engine stated the connection time then you would be entitled to delay repay for the entire journey based on the time you get to your destination.

You do not need "proof" of this (anyone can see what the minimum connection times are).

However I agree that obtaining evidence, in the form of a booking confirmation email from a split ticket website showing the full itinerary for the journey along with details of all fares held, may be useful and might reduce the length of time it takes to get compensation and perhaps reduce the possibility of a false rejection.

 

[34D]

I'm not comfortable that the entitlement is for all tickets to be refunded.

Imagine ticket A costs £10 and its train is on time. Ticket B costs £100 and is 6 mins late. Ticket C is then a £2 from a big station to the first stop on a line with an hourly service.

I'm aware that a number of people are booking ticket C (including where they have no intention of actually travelling) in order to create a large claim.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not comfortable that the entitlement is for all tickets to be refunded.

If a delay to the first train occurs the passenger may choose not to travel and the entitlement would be for a refund of all tickets for the journey. If the customer makes the journey, the entitlement is for Delay Repay to be applied to the journey.

Imagine ticket A costs £10 and its train is on time. Ticket B costs £100 and is 6 mins late. Ticket C is then a £2 from a big station to the first stop on a line with an hourly service.

I'm aware that a number of people are booking ticket C (including where they have no intention of actually travelling) in order to create a large claim.

Imagine ticket A costs £112 and trains A and B are on time. Train C is from a big station to a stop on the line with an hourly service. People could buy a ticket from A to C where they have no intention of travelling to C (e.g. someone could buy an Anytime Return to Poppleton instead of York). I doubt large numbers do though.

It's the same thing and makes no difference if it's one ticket, two tickets or three tickets.

If the sum of three tickets costs less than one ticket, the customer has done a favour to whichever train company is liable for the delay, as that train company's costs have been reduced.

 

[34D]

If a delay to the first train occurs the passenger may choose not to travel and the entitlement would be for a refund of all tickets for the journey. If the customer makes the journey, the entitlement is for Delay Repay to be applied to the journey.

The two things are different though. The right to a refund is backed up by consumer law.

Entitlement to delay repay is not, and relies on passenger charters etc, albeit that some franchise agreements may stipulate it (I havent checked).

Naturally I much prefer your interpretation, but I dont see that it is necessarily correct. Furthermore it is hard to envisage that a test case could ever get to the court of appeal due to the modest sums involved.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The two things are different though. The right to a refund is backed up by consumer law.

Entitlement to delay repay is not, and relies on passenger charters etc, albeit that some franchise agreements may stipulate it (I havent checked).

Naturally I much prefer your interpretation, but I dont see that it is necessarily correct. Furthermore it is hard to envisage that a test case could ever get to the court of appeal due to the modest sums involved.

It's perfectly clear but some TOCs choose to be blind (or are wilfully trying to evade their debts ).

Condition 14.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) states that:

Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.

Thus it is clearly established that a combination of tickets can constitute still just one journey.

Condition 32.1 states that:

If you are delayed in reaching your destination as a result of a delay or cancellation of a train service, you may be entitled to claim money back. You can make a claim in one or more of the following ways:
32.1.1. through the industry arrangements provided for:
32.1.1.1.in these Conditions; and/or
32.1.1.2.in the Passenger’s Charter of the relevant Train Company and/or ...

It's thus clear that it is about the delay in reaching the destination - i.e. the end of the journey.

Condition 33.1 states that:

In order to make a claim under the industry arrangements set out at paragraph 32.1.1 above, you must write to the relevant Train Company within 28 days of completing the relevant journey unless informed otherwise by the relevant Train Company. You will need to state the timetabled departure time of the train or trains you intended to use for your journey and provide a Ticket or other authority to travel which was valid for that journey. A Train Company will allow you to retain a Ticket after use for this purpose.

Again, we see the reference to the term journey.

Condition 33.3 states that:

Although the amount of compensation offered varies by Train Company, if you arrive 60 minutes or later at your destination station, you will, as a minimum, be entitled to compensation in accordance with the table below:

And then the compensation levels are shown, referring to "Single Ticket, or Return Ticket with delay on both the outward and return journey", or "Return Ticket with delay on outward or return journey".

When read in conjunction with what we have previously been told, it would be utterly ludicrous to suggest that, merely because the word Ticket doesn't have the (s) at the end, this means split ticket holders aren't entitled to compensation on the basis of the value of all of their tickets.

I have obtained an informal legal opinion on the matter and it was said that, as Conditions 32 and 33 nowhere exclude combinations of tickets from compensation, and Condition 14 makes them functionally equivalent to having one ticket (with via point(s)), the TOCs have no grounds to refuse compensation. Consideration would also be taken to the fact that accredited sites sell combinations of tickets as one journey, and that some TOCs explicitly state that they will pay compensation on all tickets held in their Passenger's Charter (whilst none contradict this in any of their publications).

Now, you are correct that this is unlikely to ever reach the stage where a Court issues a legally binding precedent on the matter, but I would suggest that even threatening to take the matter to Court, or indeed doing so and proceeding in the County Court, is, in the vast majority of cases, likely to result in full payment being made.