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Split Tickets - validity of advance fares if connection missed

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Belperpete

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On Sunday, I travelled from the Cambrian Coast. When we got to Machynlleth, we were told the train was going no further, and were put on a replacement bus to Shrewsbury.

Of course, by the time we got to Shrewsbury, our connecting services had long gone.

Myself and various other people went to the customer assistance desk for advice. One girl's journey was being made using a combination of advance tickets, bought from a split-ticketing web-site.

She was told that while TfW would accept her advance tickets on subsequent services, the other train companies involved in her journey would not, and she would have to contact the split-ticketing provider to obtain new tickets in order to complete her journey.

Not sure about the practicalities of contacting a split-ticketing web-site on a Sunday evening to obtain new tickets, but surely this advice cannot be right?
 
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Hadders

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The advice given is completely wrong. There is no need to purchase new tickets in these circumstances.
 

SickyNicky

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She was told that while TfW would accept her advance tickets on subsequent services, the other train companies involved in her journey would not, and she would have to contact the split-ticketing provider to obtain new tickets in order to complete her journey.

The industry's Advance Fares FAQ makes it clear that TOCs must accept the existing tickets in these circumstances (although she must follow the route and TOC restrictions on the tickets). If she was actually charged for new tickets, I would expect her to get a full refund plus some compensation after complaining.

Not sure about the practicalities of contacting a split-ticketing web-site on a Sunday evening to obtain new tickets, but surely this advice cannot be right?

For some split-ticketing websites, posting in these forums will actually be quicker than going through customer support. That's because the technical people behind them are all members of the forum, and even if we don't see the message, someone's likely to bring it to our attention.
 

scrapy

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No it's incorrect advice. Hopefully when she contacted the split ticketing provider they gave the correct advice. What she is entitled to do is travel on the next available service of the operator she has bought tickets with. TFW are correctly allowing her onward travel with them but when she gets to her next connection her tickets are still valid.

Say for example she's booked on TFW to Birmingham then Chiltern to London then she can take the next Chiltern on arrival at Birmingham. What she doesn't have the right to do is jump on the next London North Western or Avanti to London even if they leave first. (unless she misses the last Chiltern because of the TFW delay in which case the railway has an obligation not to leave her stranded, or ticket acceptance has been granted).

If she misses the last connection of the night because of the TFW delay then the railway has a duty to provide alternative transport or overnight accommodation.
 

island

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The general consensus, and the rail industry's internal guidance, is that tickets should be accepted on the next available service of the same train company in these circumstances. Acceptance on other operators is not guaranteed.

Unfortunately, staff are not always briefed correctly (or at all) on this type of topic and may indicate that new tickets need to be purchased. This cannot always be avoided in the short run and it may sometimes prove necessary to purchase new tickets and retain them for a refund.
 

Belperpete

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I spotted the poor lass again, later on the platform, in tears. I advised her that if a guard did insist on selling her a new ticket, to get assistance from the split-ticketing web-site in getting a refund. I would expect any reputable split-ticketing web-site to help one of its customers in such a situation. However, such experiences must surely dissuade people from travelling by rail.

To be fair to the staff involved, they were not booking office staff so may not be particularly au fait with ticketing conditions. They were very helpful in printing out revised itineraries for people.

Unfortunately, staff are not always briefed correctly (or at all) on this type of topic and may indicate that new tickets need to be purchased. This cannot always be avoided in the short run and it may sometimes prove necessary to purchase new tickets and retain them for a refund.
I am not quite sure what you mean by "in the short run". Split tickets are not exactly a new thing, and have been promoted in the press for several years now. Likewise the TOCs themselves are pushing advance tickets ever-more strongly, so situations in which passengers travelling with advance tickets miss their connection through late-running must be coming ever more frequent. So you would hope that front-line customer-service staff would by now be aware of the conditions.
 

island

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By “in the short run” I mean only “on the day of travel”.
 

gray1404

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What a load of rubbish. The customer was entitled to continue their journey without the need to purchase any additional tickets, subject to any route restrictions on the tickets held. Given she used a split ticket website, the retailer may very well back her up in the event of any dispute.

I am personally, sick to death of incorrect information being given out on this matter by some staff.
 

yorkie

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To be clear: passenger rights are NOT affected when using two or more tickets for a journey; the rail industry endorses this and sometimes even requires or encourages the use of two or more tickets for a particular journey.

I spotted the poor lass again, later on the platform, in tears. I advised her that if a guard did insist on selling her a new ticket, to get assistance from the split-ticketing web-site in getting a refund. I would expect any reputable split-ticketing web-site to help one of its customers in such a situation
The problem is, a retailer is limited in terms of what it can do.

It can refund unused tickets if people decide not to travel, but that is rarely the answer.

A retailer cannot refund tickets issued incorrectly by another retailer; there is no mechanism to do that.

They can advise the customer, such as re-assuring them their tickets remain valid; they can also support a customer if they enter into a formal dispute with a train company, and contact the company to encourage them to do the right thing.

If new tickets are sold, then the retailer who sold those tickets incorrectly must issue a refund. I would also hope for an apology and assurances that a reoccurrence won't occur.

However, such experiences must surely dissuade people from travelling by rail.
Absolutely. The customer assistance desk at Shrewsbury has acted in an abhorrent and disgraceful manner.

You're right; the fact some individuals of such dubious character have customer-facing roles deters some from travelling by train. The rail industry needs to get a grip and realise this.
To be fair to the staff involved, they were not booking office staff so may not be particularly au fait with ticketing conditions. They were very helpful in printing out revised itineraries for people.
They should have said they don't know then rather than making something up.
...you would hope that front-line customer-service staff would by now be aware of the conditions.
You would have thought so, but the rail industry lacks sufficient safeguards to avoid incidents such as this occurring.

No it's incorrect advice. Hopefully when she contacted the split ticketing provider they gave the correct advice. What she is entitled to do is travel on the next available service of the operator she has bought tickets with. TFW are correctly allowing her onward travel with them but when she gets to her next connection her tickets are still valid.

Say for example she's booked on TFW to Birmingham then Chiltern to London then she can take the next Chiltern on arrival at Birmingham. What she doesn't have the right to do is jump on the next London North Western or Avanti to London even if they leave first. (unless she misses the last Chiltern because of the TFW delay in which case the railway has an obligation not to leave her stranded, or ticket acceptance has been granted).

If she misses the last connection of the night because of the TFW delay then the railway has a duty to provide alternative transport or overnight accommodation.
Absolutely.
 

atlantean

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My son has a ticket to Carlisle with Avanti West Coast. Another ticket from Carlisle to Edinburgh, Waverley on TPE. If the Avanti is late and misses the last train to Edinburgh on TPE ticket he has got. Who is liable to get him to Edinburgh?
 

yorkie

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My son has a ticket to Carlisle with Avanti West Coast. Another ticket from Carlisle to Edinburgh, Waverley on TPE. If the Avanti is late and misses the last train to Edinburgh on TPE ticket he has got. Who is liable to get him to Edinburgh?
See staff at Carlisle (they are Avanti) who will assist.

Edit: actually I'd approach staff on the first train for advice in the first instance; it may be best to remain on boar to Glasgow for a Scotrail service onwards to Edinburgh.

What is the booked itinerary?
 
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atlantean

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The journey is Coventry to Carlisle, Carlisle to Waverley. The connection is 15 minutes. The Carlisle to Waverley train is the last journey.
 

Smylers

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To be clear: passenger rights are NOT affected when using two or more tickets for a journey; the rail industry endorses this and sometimes even requires or encourages the use of two or more tickets for a particular journey.
Do MCards and London Underground contactless used on part of a journey still count as ‘tickets’ for this?

We're travelling Ilkley–Salisbury, on an advertised itinerary, using a Family Return for the Leeds–King's Cross section, which we then need to link up at both ends:
  • For Ilkley–Leeds, one of the adults already has a monthly MCard (West Yorkshire bus/train pass) which covers that leg of the journey, so we'd only need to buy singles for 1 adult plus the children. But if the Ilkley–Leeds train is so late that we miss our connection at Leeds, would all 4 of us count as being on a multiple-ticket single journey (and so allowed on the next LNER service to London), or would the adult without a specific Ilkley–Leeds ticket be deemed to be late for that train?
  • And for King's Cross–Salisbury, the Advance tickets only seem to be available from appropriate London departure stations (Paddington or Vauxhall), not from London Underground Zone 1, to include the cross-London transfer. We can get an Advance from Vauxhall for £30·15 (for all 4 of us, with a Family & Friends Railcard), crossing London for £4·80 on contactless. But if the LNER train is late into King's Cross such that we miss our connection at Vauxhall, will having broken our National Rail journey with contactless make it count as separate journeys? A Zone 1–Salisbury ticket is £80·40, effectively charging £49·25 for the Tube journey.
Thanks.
 
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