Splitting up long services to avoid EU driving hours regulations

[PermitToTravel]

spawned from discussion in http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=154581

It's quite surprising that bus operators can split bus services to take advantage of the (incredibly lax!) GB driving hours regs, even though they're greater than the 50km route length limit required for these rules to apply.

The main stipulations of the EU driving hours regs:

• drivers can drive for up to 4h30 before they must take a 45 minute break
• drivers can only drive for 9 hours per day (extendable to 10 hours twice a week)
• drivers must have 11 hours from booking off to booking on (reducable to 9 hours thrice a week)
• drivers must have an unbroken 45 hours off duty every week (although up to 21 hours from this can be "borrowed" from the next week, if and only if it is then "paid back")

These aren't especially onerous - they'd all make sense for the vast majority of employers of 9-5 office workers, if you substituted the word "work" for the word "drive".

In contrast, the GB driving hours regulations:

• drivers can drive for up to 5h30 before they must take a 30 minute break
• drivers can drive for up to 10 hours per day
• drivers must have 10 hours from booking off to booking on (reducable to 8h30 thrice a week!)
• drivers must have a day off duty, every fortnight

I think it's remarkably generous of the EU to allow us to allow operators of local stopping bus services to work to the latter set of rules. In particular, an 8h30 turnaround from booking off to booking on is ludicrous and brutal - in fact, the Working Time Directive mandates 11 hours for most workers (and this can't be opted out of!), except that workers in road transport are for some bizarre reason exempt! Most office workers would not agree to work those hours, even when their tired mistakes are never going to result in deaths!

Lorry drivers, carrying potatoes around, work to the first set of rules. For some reason, it's been decided that drivers of local buses, carrying humans around, work to the second set. Why on earth is it allowed for operators of coaches and long distance buses (whose drivers spend most of their days driving on dreary boring motorways, quite well known for sending people to sleep) to opt themselves out of these rules by pretending that their service is actually two separate ones, fooling absolutely nobody?

 

[carlberry]

spawned from discussion in http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=154581

It's quite surprising that bus operators can split bus services to take advantage of the (incredibly lax!) GB driving hours regs, even though they're greater than the 50km route length limit required for these rules to apply.


Lorry drivers, carrying potatoes around, work to the first set of rules. For some reason, it's been decided that drivers of local buses, carrying humans around, work to the second set. Why on earth is it allowed for operators of coaches and long distance buses (whose drivers spend most of their days driving on dreary boring motorways, quite well known for sending people to sleep) to opt themselves out of these rules by pretending that their service is actually two separate ones, fooling absolutely nobody?

Drivers who spend most of their day on dreary boring motorways work to EU rules, the exemptions are for local bus services that rarely touch motorways. Coaches are not exempt. The other big difference is that vehicles on local bus services dont need tachos fitted.

 

[ChathillMan]

If you want to look at it in black and white, Spltting what used to be one through bus it to two (or even three or four in some cases) is no different to a driver doing 5 hours on three or four "normal" interworking services.

Now driving hours is another subject entirely, by splitting through journeys on long distance routes keeps them viable as no tacho is needed and more staff can do them. So long as the unions at the depot have adequate schedules agreements it shouldn't be a problem.

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[AM9]

Can we expect the rules to be relaxed further once we exit the EU. Those baying for 'unnecessary' regulation by Europe to be abandoned as soon as possible as it prevents innovation and successful busines operation (read making more profit) will no doubt be shouting about too much red tape and " 'elf 'n safety nonsense".

 

[ChathillMan]

Can we expect the rules to be relaxed further once we exit the EU. Those baying for 'unnecessary' regulation by Europe to be abandoned as soon as possible as it prevents innovation and successful busines operation (read making more profit) will no doubt be shouting about too much red tape and " 'elf 'n safety nonsense".

If the great repeal bill becomes law, I believe the EU regs will transfer. A lot will then depend on what colour the government will be.

i would be interested to know how EU regs work on mainland europe though

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[pemma]

It's worth remembering any driver who is an employee will have normal worker rights, which state that you must have a minimum of 2 days off every 14 and can't work more than 48 hours in 7 days unless you volunteer to work overtime.

 

[pemma]

Drivers who spend most of their day on dreary boring motorways work to EU rules, the exemptions are for local bus services that rarely touch motorways. Coaches are not exempt. The other big difference is that vehicles on local bus services dont need tachos fitted.

That's not always the case.

High Peak run a 199 bus from Manchester Airport to Buxton, which runs on the motorway between Manchester Airport and Stockport. Some evening services only run between Manchester Airport and Stockport so they run on the motorway for the majority of the journey. However, they have registered the service as one local bus service.

They also run a TransPeak service from Manchester to Derby, which they've registered as multiple local services to prevent the EU rules applying. Yet this service doesn't run on the motorway.

 

[pemma]

In particular, an 8h30 turnaround from booking off to booking on is ludicrous and brutal

Related to that how does that tie in with school/college bus drivers who might go home at 09:30 and return to work at 15:00?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

which they've registered as multiple local services to prevent the EU rules applying.

Isn't that quite commonplace in rural areas where a natural route can easily be longer than 30 miles?

Assuming the existing working hours rules for drivers of buses are retained and presumably there are good reasons for needing them, leaving the EU gives a chance to redefine a bus route. The pragmatic way would be that if it looks like a bus, stops at a lot of places to let people on and off, then it's a bus whether or not the nominal through route exceeds 30 miles.

The government appears to approve of the "get out of regulation" device of one bus with multiple route numbers.

 

[pemma]

Isn't that quite commonplace in rural areas where a natural route can easily be longer than 30 miles?

Assuming the existing working hours rules for drivers of buses are retained and presumably there are good reasons for needing them, leaving the EU gives a chance to redefine a bus route. The pragmatic way would be that if it looks like a bus, stops at a lot of places to let people on and off, then it's a bus whether or not the nominal through route exceeds 30 miles.

The government appears to approve of the "get out of regulation" device of one bus with multiple route numbers.

One thing that I think is a bit stupid is if you had a 50 mile bus route registered as one route and the driver changes over at a half way point, it's treated as a long distance service. If you have multiple different services inter-worked using the same vehicle and driver (which aren't advertised as through services) the same driver can finish up driving a longer distance between breaks.

EU or not I don't think you'll get a good clear definition of a local bus service while ENCTS passes only valid on local bus services exist.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

EU or not I don't think you'll get a good clear definition of a local bus service while ENCTS passes only valid on local bus services exist.

I would have thought that an extremely good definition or starting point for a definition. It's a bus if ENCTS passes are valid.

 

[ChathillMan]

Related to that how does that tie in with school/college bus drivers who might go home at 09:30 and return to work at 15:00?

Unless the driver started the working day at midnight and ended at 0930 it wouldn't be a problem.

99.9% of the time with schools and in all my time as a scheduler the driver clocks on 0730, does the school run, back to depot then either does misc work, council contract runs or is on a spit shift so won't return for the rest of the shift until 1430 when they do the afternoon school, then back to depot to clock off at 1700.

The working day or Spreadtime is 0730 to 1700. How that is paid depends on local agreement

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[pemma]

I would have thought that an extremely good definition or starting point for a definition. It's a bus if ENCTS passes are valid.

ENCTS passes are accepted on some services operated by National Express Coaches where the stops are close together.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Related to that how does that tie in with school/college bus drivers who might go home at 09:30 and return to work at 15:00?

the EWTD and 'split shifts' is an interesting one tht isn;t very clear at times

not only busses , but also stuff like courier Depot staff who might do a 'tea time' loading the trailers to go to the hub shift and an early hours of the morning unload the trailers and sort into 'rounds' shift for the van drivers to load into their vans at the start of the day ...

 

[Statto]

That's not always the case.

High Peak run a 199 bus from Manchester Airport to Buxton, which runs on the motorway between Manchester Airport and Stockport. Some evening services only run between Manchester Airport and Stockport so they run on the motorway for the majority of the journey. However, they have registered the service as one local bus service.

They also run a TransPeak service from Manchester to Derby, which they've registered as multiple local services to prevent the EU rules applying. Yet this service doesn't run on the motorway.

You also have Stagecoach Manchester 330 Ashton Under Lyne-World Freight Terminal which uses the M60/M56 between Stockport & Manchester Airport, registered as a local bus service.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Related to that how does that tie in with school/college bus drivers who might go home at 09:30 and return to work at 15:00?

I would have thought that this would have been interworked with general local bus services where it would be a single driver doing a single shift within the GB regulations - which seems to be the case with independant operators.

 

[pemma]

I would have thought that this would have been interworked with general local bus services where it would be a single driver doing a single shift within the GB regulations - which seems to be the case with independant operators.

Some operators (particularly coach hire companies) have some old buses which are only used on school services. They tend to have semi-retired drivers who just do a few hours of work on school days.

 

[jay38a]

If the great repeal bill becomes law, I believe the EU regs will transfer. A lot will then depend on what colour the government will be.

i would be interested to know how EU regs work on mainland europe though

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Once we leave the EU, we will still be part of something called AETR (The European Agreement Concerning the Work of Crews of Vehicles Engaged in International Road Transport) which follow EU driving regulations, so CPC and EU Driving Hours will still apply.

 

[Flying Snail]

Drivers who spend most of their day on dreary boring motorways work to EU rules, the exemptions are for local bus services that rarely touch motorways. Coaches are not exempt. The other big difference is that vehicles on local bus services dont need tachos fitted.

You don't have to spend all your day on a motorway or even be on one at all to fall asleep at the wheel. A former colleague of mine fell asleep on a single carriageway road and killed someone in the resulting accident and this was someone who was driving to EU rules.

If the great repeal bill becomes law, I believe the EU regs will transfer. A lot will then depend on what colour the government will be.

i would be interested to know how EU regs work on mainland europe though

The exemption for scheduled bus services under 50km is an EU wide rule, the practice of pretending long routes are a series of shorter ones is a UK dodge that is not replicated across Europe. It may be in some countries but none that I know of including here in Ireland where the domestic regs are very similar to UK.

Numerous routes I regularly drove would be carved up to avoid EU regs if in the UK, while it would have been very useful on some occasions, overall I would not have wanted to be stuck with the short breaks on domestic work on many of the duties I drove.

The EU regs also allow the break to be split into one 15 minute and one 30 minute break in that order. On bus work the 4h30 limit can and usually will stretch due to breaks in driving for stops and even traffic. Digital tachos are better at this than the old charts as they automatically switch from driving to other work when stopped and every full minute stationary is not counted for driving time.

I imagine the practice will continue unless a serious accident with multiple deaths occurs and the dodge is publicised as a contributing factor.

 

[radamfi]

The exemption for scheduled bus services under 50km is an EU wide rule, the practice of pretending long routes are a series of shorter ones is a UK dodge that is not replicated across Europe. It may be in some countries but none that I know of including here in Ireland where the domestic regs are very similar to UK.

Are there any routes over 50 km long run in the Republic of Ireland using normal buses? The Irish seem to prefer operating interurban services with coaches, even some not on the Expressway network. I do agree with you that the British dodge is dodgy, and it should make no difference whether the vehicle is a bus or coach, but not surprising given the philosophy of running buses as cheaply as possible.

 

[philthetube]

the GB driving hours regulations:

• drivers can drive for up to 5h30 before they must take a 30 minute break
• drivers can drive for up to 10 hours per day
• drivers must have 10 hours from booking off to booking on (reducable to 8h30 thrice a week!)
• drivers must have a day off duty, every fortnight

[/QUOTE]

What these actually mean is that legally a driver can drive 10 hours a day 365 days a year, a drivers day off has to be 24 hours, he/she can legally do an early shift on one day, say finishing at three and a late the day after, stating after three and this counts as a day off.

Split routes have been going on for a long time, probably as long as there have been any rules concerning driving hours, certainly Yelloway used to operate routes like Clacton Blackburn, (883) on bus hours. The route had 53 stops listed on the drivers chart.

 

[Flying Snail]

Are there any routes over 50 km long run in the Republic of Ireland using normal buses?

There are some, not many though.

Dublin Bus' route are all under 50km although they do occasionally get used en masse to transport concert-goers to venues beyond their usual area.

Bus Eireann mostly use coaches on services of any length but single and double deck buses do get used on some routes over 50km, some routes mostly operated by coaches do see some bus duties. In the Dublin area double deck buses do occasionally get used on routes 101, 109, 126.
Most of the Bus Eireann fleet is tacho fitted anyway.

There are some private operators that have used buses on longer routes as well.

It is also the case that using coaches doesn't stop UK operators splitting longer routes either, services such as x5 Cambridge-Oxford, x62 Leeds - Hull for example.

The Irish seem to prefer operating interurban services with coaches, even some not on the Expressway network.

It is a massive difference and IMO both have got it wrong in some cases. There are too many lengthy UK routes running buses in particular, many of which used to be coach operated until recently.

The stupidly low speed limit of 65kph for buses in Ireland is a factor as well.

 

[pemma]

Are there any routes over 50 km long run in the Republic of Ireland using normal buses? The Irish seem to prefer operating interurban services with coaches, even some not on the Expressway network.

Indeed. When I caught a Bus Eirann service from Cork to Killarney I got a coach, as I expected. However, the same standard of vehicle was also running Cork to the Airport, Cork to Kinsale and Cork to Blarney services but that did at least mean plenty of luggage space with those services being popular with tourists. Over here we get standard layout Optare Solos and Enviro 200s running bus services to and from Manchester Airport.

 

[pemma]

What these actually mean is that legally a driver can drive 10 hours a day 365 days a year, a drivers day off has to be 24 hours, he/she can legally do an early shift on one day, say finishing at three and a late the day after, stating after three and this counts as a day off.

Like I've already said if the driver is an employee then employment law applies which states a employee can't be made to work more than 12 days every fortnight or made to work for more than 48 hours a week. However, if the driver is self-employed then employment law wouldn't apply.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A thought that's just occurred to me while reading this thread...

If 2-person operation of buses was still commonplace, would it be permitted under the rules for the staff members to switch roles (driver/conductor) halfway through a long journey and the service to then be advertised as the full route, rather than splitting? Would a similar approach with just a driver work, if another driver takes over at some point? Shift patterns at many firms operate with drivers switching part-way, usually at a depot.

I know that 2-person operation isn't coming back, and that the business case for such an operation wouldn't be great... I'm just curious as to whether it would be permitted.

 

[pemma]

A thought that's just occurred to me while reading this thread...

If 2-person operation of buses was still commonplace, would it be permitted under the rules for the staff members to switch roles (driver/conductor) halfway through a long journey and the service to then be advertised as the full route, rather than splitting? Would a similar approach with just a driver work, if another driver takes over at some point? Shift patterns at many firms operate with drivers switching part-way, usually at a depot.

I know that 2-person operation isn't coming back, and that the business case for such an operation wouldn't be great... I'm just curious as to whether it would be permitted.

Some overnight coaches do have the driver and the relief driver on the coach from the outset.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Once we leave the EU, we will still be part of something called AETR (The European Agreement Concerning the Work of Crews of Vehicles Engaged in International Road Transport) which follow EU driving regulations, so CPC and EU Driving Hours will still apply.

Do these rules specify that a bus route has to be 50 km or less? Given that bus routes do not normally cross frontiers they aren't part of "International" Road Transport. But you need to define a "bus" route as coach routes can be international.

 

[daikilo]

If the great repeal bill becomes law, I believe the EU regs will transfer. A lot will then depend on what colour the government will be.

i would be interested to know how EU regs work on mainland europe though

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This is another case where I expect there to be an exception from this "great incorporation bill" as the equivalent UK regulations exist.

In France the EU regulations are closely followed and woe betide anyone (driver or manager) who causes any deviation.

 

[pemma]

This is another case where I expect there to be an exception from this "great incorporation bill" as the equivalent UK regulations exist.

And that thinking is precisely why Labour are against the bill. It would allow working conditions to be made worse for anyone employed as a coach driver without having a government vote on the issue.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Some overnight coaches do have the driver and the relief driver on the coach from the outset.

I know, but would a similar approach for long distance BUS services (ones which accept ENCTS passes throughout) be permitted, without that service needing to be artificially split midway through the journey?