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Splitting up long services to avoid EU driving hours regulations

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CatfordCat

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To pick up a couple of points -

Whether or not a service touches a motorway isn't relevant to drivers hours, it's the end to end distance of the service that is the legal dividing line between EU / domestic hours, so (for example) the First Berkshire 'Green Line' service between Victoria and Windsor is under 50 Km end to end, the Windsor - Bracknell bit is registered as a separate service.

The rules for what qualifies as a 'local bus service' for concessionary passes is under different legislation, and you can have services which run under domestic drivers hours, but don't count as 'local bus' for concessionary passes. And possibly vice versa (I'm a bit out of touch with concessionary travel these days)

As for school bus drivers, the bit between (approx) 0930 and 1430 is, from a drivers hours perspective, a break within a working day, not a break between two working days.

The working day of a part time school bus driver is going to be something like 0700 to 1700, so there's a break of more than 12 hours between two working days, so this would be fine under either EU or domestic hours.
 
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jay38a

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Do these rules specify that a bus route has to be 50 km or less? Given that bus routes do not normally cross frontiers they aren't part of "International" Road Transport. But you need to define a "bus" route as coach routes can be international.

Yes it does, as it’s more of an international agreement.
 

MarlowDonkey

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Yes it does, as it’s more of an international agreement.

The source document appears to be this:-

http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2006/sc1/ECE-TRANS-SC1-2006-02e.pdf

On page 9

2. Nevertheless,
(a)
if, in the course of an international road transport operation one or more crew members do not leave the national territory in which they normally exercise their occupational activities, the Contracting Party for that territory shall be free not to apply to him or them the
provisions of this Agreement;


This seems to overrule
(b)
Unless the Contracting Parties whose territory is used agree otherwise, this Agreement shall not apply to the international road transport performed by:


3.
Vehicles used for the carriage of passengers on regular services where the route covered by the service in question does not exceed 50 kilometres;


As far as Great Britain is concerned, the international regulations would appear not to apply to any bus services
one or more crew members do not leave the national territory

The EU rules seem to have gold plated the international agreement to apply to domestic services as well. The international element is relevant to continental Europe and perhaps Ireland, but not Great Britain

I'm guessing that "contracting party" in this context was the EU. One might hop this reverts back to being the UK which could then just say that international rules didn't apply to any UK bus or coach services provided they never went on a ferry or the Channel Tunnel shuttle or crossed into the Irish Republic.
 
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philthetube

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Like I've already said if the driver is an employee then employment law applies which states a employee can't be made to work more than 12 days every fortnight or made to work for more than 48 hours a week. However, if the driver is self-employed then employment law wouldn't apply.

This is true, however an individual can opt out of the relevant law even if employed, my point is that it is ludicrous that they are allowed to
 

padbus

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One problem which arises when splitting routes is that the bus cannot show the ultimate destination from the outset. It has to show the point at which the route splits although it can show that it is 'for' the ultimate destination in small print. Thus Stagecoch SW service 9A leaves Exeter showing "SEATON for Lyme Regis". As Seaton is the dominant word, passers by may not realise there is a though bus from Exeter to Lyme Regis. If it showed "Seaton for LYME REGIS" would any action be taken against Stagecoach? After all, those in authority know all about the fudge that is going on and what is displayed on the bus is not going to affect the driver's hours of work.

I don't think Brexit will have the slightest effect on the situation. The relevant EU laws will be imported lock, stock & barrell into British law along with everything else relating to the EU. Changes may happen later but I can't see bus drivers' hours being a priority for revised legislation.
 

zuriblue

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One problem which arises when splitting routes is that the bus cannot show the ultimate destination from the outset. It has to show the point at which the route splits although it can show that it is 'for' the ultimate destination in small print. Thus Stagecoch SW service 9A leaves Exeter showing "SEATON for Lyme Regis". As Seaton is the dominant word, passers by may not realise there is a though bus from Exeter to Lyme Regis. If it showed "Seaton for LYME REGIS" would any action be taken against Stagecoach? After all, those in authority know all about the fudge that is going on and what is displayed on the bus is not going to affect the driver's hours of work.

I don't think Brexit will have the slightest effect on the situation. The relevant EU laws will be imported lock, stock & barrell into British law along with everything else relating to the EU. Changes may happen later but I can't see bus drivers' hours being a priority for revised legislation.

That actually answers something that I'd wondered about for a while. I regularly visit my Mother who lives in the Scottish Borders and sometimes when we're in Kelso I'll see the Edinburgh bus going through and the destination display always shows Lauder on to Edinburgh. As Kelso to Edinburgh is more than 50 Km I take it that this fudge is being used here.
 

PermitToTravel

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It's worth remembering any driver who is an employee will have normal worker rights, which state that you must have a minimum of 2 days off every 14 and can't work more than 48 hours in 7 days unless you volunteer to work overtime.

That would make sense, wouldn't it! AIUI the matter, mobile workers in road transport (i.e. drivers) aren't governed by the regular Working Time Directive; but instead by a special mobile workers' working time regulations which do not contain the former requirement.

Certainly on the buses it's reasonably common for drivers to work 13 days in a row, have their required 1 day off, and then do another 13.

I know, but would a similar approach for long distance BUS services (ones which accept ENCTS passes throughout) be permitted, without that service needing to be artificially split midway through the journey?

The route length would still be >50km, so EU rules would still apply. Such a switch wouldn't be helpful for driving hours either - conductoring is still work, so can't be counted as a break.

If it showed "Seaton for LYME REGIS" would any action be taken against Stagecoach? After all, those in authority know all about the fudge that is going on and what is displayed on the bus is not going to affect the driver's hours of work.

Transdev don't seem to have had any comeback yet:
28057080293_f0eef5ebc5_b.jpg

Image shows an X43 in Skipton. The destination is showing 'Burnley then' in small letters and 'Manchester' in big letters
 

Bletchleyite

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Once we leave the EU, we will still be part of something called AETR (The European Agreement Concerning the Work of Crews of Vehicles Engaged in International Road Transport) which follow EU driving regulations, so CPC and EU Driving Hours will still apply.

These drivers are not involved in *international* road transport.
 

pemma

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Transdev don't seem to have had any comeback yet:
28057080293_f0eef5ebc5_b.jpg

Image shows an X43 in Skipton. The destination is showing 'Burnley then' in small letters and 'Manchester' in big letters

I'm pretty sure High Peak advertise the TP service as TP followed by the final destination on the front of the bus, when the registrations are split up in to TP1, TP2 and TP3. Although, they are due to face the Traffic Commissioner next month - I'm not sure exactly what for though.

I think TM Travel used to run a Manchester to Chesterfield (or similar) service which was advertised as being a bus to somewhere or other for Chesterfield.
 

padbus

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Transdev don't seem to have had any comeback yet:
28057080293_f0eef5ebc5_b.jpg

Image shows an X43 in Skipton. The destination is showing 'Burnley then' in small letters and 'Manchester' in big letters

That's certainly very clear about the ultimate destination of the bus. I wish others would do the same. However the route number should be to the right of the display to meet Disability Access regulations.
 

pemma

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That's certainly very clear about the ultimate destination of the bus. I wish others would do the same. However the route number should be to the right of the display to meet Disability Access regulations.

Is that a recent change? I've noticed some operators have switched which side the number is on in the past few months. If it is then wouldn't any buses acquired before the change have 'grandfather rights'? Thinking about one route local to me the 88 Knutsford-Wilmslow-Altrincham bus stops at the same bus stop at Wilmslow station when it's going towards Altrincham as when it's going towards Knutsford, so in an instance like that the route number on it's own isn't sufficient information to tell you whether or not it's the bus you need to catch.
 

Robertj21a

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If nothing else having it on the right (facing the front of the bus) is best because you can see it from the kerb in a queue of buses.

In order to assist those who are visually impaired, it is actually listed as 'Best Practice' in the PSVAR 2000 documents. Unfortunately, it seems that Trent refuses to comply and I assume that Alex has taken that view on with him to his role at Transdev.
Most unfortunate for what are, otherwise, fairly good quality operators.
 

Andyh82

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I'm not sure this an example of this practice. The destination shown above is just the way Transdev choose to do destinations. The current bosses seem to like stuff like that rather than using "via"
 
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Mr Manager

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This is true, however an individual can opt out of the relevant law even if employed, my point is that it is ludicrous that they are allowed to

As a Self Employed driver myself the HMRC have now ruled that we must have a minimum 2 customers to whom we supply services to. This will rule out using regular as in everyday drivers dedicated to one company.
 

MotCO

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How do drivers' hours operate when a driver is stuck in heavy traffic, such as a motorway closed by an accident? Is s/he allowed to continue driving to get to the destination even if it means the permitted hours are exceeded? Or are the hours in the queue classified as a break?
 

pemma

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How do drivers' hours operate when a driver is stuck in heavy traffic, such as a motorway closed by an accident? Is s/he allowed to continue driving to get to the destination even if it means the permitted hours are exceeded? Or are the hours in the queue classified as a break?

This has been discussed before. If the maximum driver hours are reached the service should be terminated short or a replacement driver should be sent out to relieve the current driver. There was a case against YourBus when managers were telling drivers undertaking NX work to tamper with the devices recording their driving hours when they couldn't complete the work and get the coach back to the depot within the maximum permitted driving hours. Criminal charges were brought against the people involved and YourBus no longer has a NX contract.

I recently heard about an incident where a coach taking holiday makers home from Dover ferry port to various places along the M6 was delayed and the operator terminated the service at Lymm services with taxis arranged for passengers who were travelling further north.
 
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talltim

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Presumably they can't just terminate actually on the motorway tho, there must be some flexibility to get to a reasonable stopping place.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Presumably they can't just terminate actually on the motorway tho, there must be some flexibility to get to a reasonable stopping place.

That is exactly what happens.

Article 12 of Regulation (EC) 561/2006 explains why and where it is permissible to exceed rules on breaks and rest. As long as road safety is not jeopardised — and only to allow a driver to reach a suitable stopping place to ensure the safety of persons, the vehicle or its load — drivers may depart from the usual provisions of the rules and exceed their driving or duty time.

Drivers MUST then annotate their records via a manual entry on an old style chart or to the digi printout to explain exactly the departure from the rules and must be made as soon as the suitable stopping place is reached.

One grey area is if the queue is solid and not likely to move. A driver *may* take a break but only if they are free to dispose of their time as they wish. Having to sit in the cab in case the queue moves does not count.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The route length would still be >50km, so EU rules would still apply. Such a switch wouldn't be helpful for driving hours either - conductoring is still work, so can't be counted as a break.

It's still work, but it isn't driving- and isn't it specifically driving hours rules that are the issue? If time spent performing other duties on board still counts towards driving hours, wouldn't that nullify the rule* stated in the last post about dealing with severe and lengthy delays:- i.e. that if the driver is able to leave the driving seat/cab area this can be counted as a break. I'd imagine that in a case like that, the driver would still have duties to perform such as reassuring passengers and getting in touch with management.

If conducting (or serving tea, or whatever) does count as driving hours, then a 2nd driver would have to travel as a passenger until it's time to take over. Still do-able, and indeed it happens on occasion, but it then means using up a seat with someone who hasn't bought a ticket.

*=not really a rule, but a "grey area" according to the poster who mentioned it.
 
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philthetube

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That is exactly what happens.

Article 12 of Regulation (EC) 561/2006 explains why and where it is permissible to exceed rules on breaks and rest. As long as road safety is not jeopardised — and only to allow a driver to reach a suitable stopping place to ensure the safety of persons, the vehicle or its load — drivers may depart from the usual provisions of the rules and exceed their driving or duty time.

Drivers MUST then annotate their records via a manual entry on an old style chart or to the digi printout to explain exactly the departure from the rules and must be made as soon as the suitable stopping place is reached.

One grey area is if the queue is solid and not likely to move. A driver *may* take a break but only if they are free to dispose of their time as they wish. Having to sit in the cab in case the queue moves does not count.

Traffic commissioners become interested if it is a regular occurrence.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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It's still work, but it isn't driving- and isn't it specifically driving hours rules that are the issue? If time spent performing other duties on board still counts towards driving hours, wouldn't that nullify the rule* stated in the last post about dealing with severe and lengthy delays:- i.e. that if the driver is able to leave the driving seat/cab area this can be counted as a break. I'd imagine that in a case like that, the driver would still have duties to perform such as reassuring passengers and getting in touch with management.

If conducting (or serving tea, or whatever) does count as driving hours, then a 2nd driver would have to travel as a passenger until it's time to take over. Still do-able, and indeed it happens on occasion, but it then means using up a seat with someone who hasn't bought a ticket.

*=not really a rule, but a "grey area" according to the poster who mentioned it.

This has been explored at length as to what constitutes being free to dispose of their time as they wish.

If they are doing "something" (as opposed to driving) then that is "work" - that is equally applicable to LGV drivers who help to unload their truck (even if it is merely sliding the curtains back) or being sat in a queue at a distribution centre a week before Christmas.

However, once they may have arrived at said distribution centre, they may be able to go to the canteen, stay in their cab, have a smoke.... they are free to dispose of their time as they wish. They may have to stay on site but freedom doesn't mean absolute freedom. It means that they are not engaged in an activity and obligated to do so by the employer.

The position of jockey driver on a coach was always a moot point but it is now accepted that they are working so their time on the coach (even as a passenger) counts as duty time but not driving time.

You do, of course, get blurring in terms of the rules on WTD and drivers hours regs - what constitutes a period of availability vs. a legal break and all that. However, in terms of EU drivers hours, that would be the rules.
 

PermitToTravel

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With regards to getting stuck in traffic, this is fine. If a driver's hours are exceeded because they can't get to a parking place, they can carry on until they can find a safe place to park up. Responsible operators should of course manage the situation (cover or cancel trips, deploy spare buses/drivers, arrange to extend a shorter duty, etc) before it gets anywhere near the 5h30 limit - but sometimes things happen and cause hours of unexpected delay, and the rules take that into account.

Another big difference between GB and EU rules is that the latter has compliance recorded by tachographs. DVSA (in their capacity formerly known as VOSA) occasionally pull trucks over for random tacho checks, and randomly check the traffic offices of HGV and PCV operators. They can take a download from an individual driver's card or from a vehicle's tachograph, or ask to inspect the records that must be held by an operator.

If a driver has to go over their 4h30 due to unforeseen traffic problems, the process is that they take two printouts from the tacho head, and write an explanation of the causes on the back. One goes to be kept with the operator's records, and the driver keeps the other with them for the next 28 days. DVSA inspectors expect to see such printouts/explanations at random inspections if the driver's card reveals any detected infringements. If a driver or company seem to be having these issues far more frequently than anyone else, words of advice can be given or enforcement action taken - against the driver, operator, or both, as appropriate.

GB hours, on the other hand, are basically unenforced. Bus operators are basically just trusted to comply with the rules. Many shifts are scheduled with a 5h20 - 5h30 driving spell, leaving minimal room for delay. There are 5 minute stands at termini, but certainly where I drove you'd be expected to turn straight around if you arrived more late than that, and roadside supervisors would threaten to report you for delaying the service otherwise. I once called the office from a distant terminus extremely late, about 5h of driving into a spell, to receive the angry reply "I don't care how long you've been driving, you're allowed to go over your hours if you're stuck in traffic! If you refuse to run your last trip in service I will put a report in!"

This was for one of the Big Five. Clearly, there might be even less regard for the rules from the smaller / less reputable operators.

Aftermarket tachographs aren't expensive, and are available as a factory-fit optional extra for pretty much every model of bus currently in service. We're already incredibly generous to bus companies in allowing them the use of the excessively unrestrictive GB driving hours regs - why do we go even further by just trusting them to comply, effectively letting them do whatever they'd like?
 
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A thought that's just occurred to me while reading this thread...

If 2-person operation of buses was still commonplace, would it be permitted under the rules for the staff members to switch roles (driver/conductor) halfway through a long journey and the service to then be advertised as the full route, rather than splitting? Would a similar approach with just a driver work, if another driver takes over at some point? Shift patterns at many firms operate with drivers switching part-way, usually at a depot.

I know that 2-person operation isn't coming back, and that the business case for such an operation wouldn't be great... I'm just curious as to whether it would be permitted.

you mean in the way that many coaches on longer non stop journeys do ?
 

radamfi

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Aftermarket tachographs aren't expensive, and are available as a factory-fit optional extra for pretty much every model of bus currently in service.

Really? We were told by the people who believe that the British way of running public transport is the best that tachograph installation is prohibitively expensive and only properly funded bus operations can afford it, so therefore not local bus operations in Britain.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Really? We were told by the people who believe that the British way of running public transport is the best that tachograph installation is prohibitively expensive and only properly funded bus operations can afford it, so therefore not local bus operations in Britain.

It costs c.£1.5 to 2k for installation, then you have the 2 and 6 year recalibration charges etc. So a basic cost of >£60m which seems like quite a lot of money
 

PermitToTravel

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As I said, new buses would come with tachos pre-fitted. If the requirement applied retrospectively to buses already owned, big operators would get their depot workshops accredited as tachograph centres (like they're already accredited as MOT centres) and would do it in-house for nowhere near that much cost (roughly 20%, on the back of a fag packet). The 2 year inspection could be added to the existing rota inspections for basically free (6 yearly inspections aren't relevant for new/newly-fitted vehicles any more).

I'm sure they'd take it as seriously as they currently take MOT inspections ;)
 
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