Springburn to Coatbridge Central

[alistairlees]

Hi

I was just looking at journeys between Springburn and Coatbridge Central, and am struggling to decide what are the valid itineraries for an Any Permitted fare.

Before fares and the routeing guide are considered, the journey possibilities would seem to be:

1. Via Greenfaulds (1 change). Takes about 30 minutes.

2. Via Queen Street / Central then a train to Whifflet and change there (takes rather longer).

I know that you could go to Coatbridge Sunnyside (this may be a misnomer), but there's no fixed link from there so in theory it's not a valid itinerary.

The reason I ask is:
- the shortest "real" distance is via Whifflet (13.75 miles)
- via Greenfaulds is 16.9 miles
- in the routeing guide data there is a distance from Springburn to Coatbridge Central of 7.71 miles (direct, even though it doesn't exist). Possibly this represents use of a freight chord for passenger trains in the past, though even then it wouldn't have been right. But that's history, shouldn't be relevant.

So, unless there is a mapped route or easement, no fare should be valid because the actual journey is not within 3 miles of the shortest route.

Some journey planners such as Raileasy and Trainline don't show any fares or itineraries - I assume for this reason. Others (VTEC and c2c) show journeys via Greenfaulds.

Maybe it's a mapped route? Map GF links Springburn to Falkirk Group, and map SG links Springburn to Motherwell Group. I haven't had time to check NFM64 yet though and look into this properly.

Any advice or contributions appreciated. I'm approaching this from a "what do the data and the rules allow me to do" point of view, rather than "will the guard accept my ticket" point of view, so no need to worry about that part.

Thanks in anticipation.

 

[JB_B]

Falkirk and Motherwell fail fare-check but Glasgow Group passes - mapped on SG ?

 

[JB_B]

Falkirk and Motherwell fail fare-check but Glasgow Group passes - mapped on SG ?

 

[Starmill]

It does look like that's the mileage via the Gartcosh Jn - Gartsherrie South Jn link yes.

I am pretty sure that this link presently has no passenger services.

 

[yorkie]

Hi

I was just looking at journeys between Springburn and Coatbridge Central, and am struggling to decide what are the valid itineraries for an Any Permitted fare.

Before fares and the routeing guide are considered, the journey possibilities would seem to be:

1. Via Greenfaulds (1 change). Takes about 30 minutes.

This should be allowed, however the data says no because the shortest route is considered to be 7.71 miles, despite the fact no passenger trains take the direct route (it appears to be freight only).

So, contractually, this cannot be the shortest route.

2. Via Queen Street / Central then a train to Whifflet and change there (takes rather longer).

That's fine providing you go via Whifflet and not via Motherwell; map SG.

I know that you could go to Coatbridge Sunnyside (this may be a misnomer), but there's no fixed link from there so in theory it's not a valid itinerary.

Having been there, I can confirm it is a misnomer. And you're right, the lack of fixed link means booking engines cannot offer that journey, even though it would be sensible.

The reason I ask is:
- the shortest "real" distance is via Whifflet (13.75 miles)

As this involves a walk/transfer, I'd say it cannot actually form the shores route by rail, under the National Rail Conditions of Travel, so...

- via Greenfaulds is 16.9 miles

...has to be the shortest route under the NRCoT

- in the routeing guide data there is a distance from Springburn to Coatbridge Central of 7.71 miles (direct, even though it doesn't exist). Possibly this represents use of a freight chord for passenger trains in the past, though even then it wouldn't have been right. But that's history, shouldn't be relevant.

Agreed.

So, unless there is a mapped route or easement, no fare should be valid because the actual journey is not within 3 miles of the shortest route.

Most of the sensible itineraries are not considered to be valid by booking systems that comply with the rules which they must comply with to be accredited.

Rather than fix the mileage, I expect RDG to introduce some positive easements to allow travel via sensible routes, such as via Greenfaulds.

Positive easements solve most (but not all) problems with Dore being treated as an intermediate station between Sheffield and Dronfield, for example.

Some journey planners such as Raileasy and Trainline don't show any fares or itineraries - I assume for this reason. Others (VTEC and c2c) show journeys via Greenfaulds.

Trainline's provider for journey planning struggles when the fastest routes are not permitted. I am surprised Trainline are prepared to put up with that as it must drive potential customers to other booking sites.

 

[Starmill]

That's fine providing you go via Whifflet and not via Motherwell; map SG.

This is a sideshow I'm afraid but I would have thought that via Motherwell would be permitted if using a direct train from Glasgow Central (a member of the destination Routing Group) to Coatbridge Central (destination).

However, as Motherwell Group fails the fares check some may take the view that travel via Motherwell is not permitted. I would not say that is a view I share.

I do not know if it is a requirement for journey planners to follow that rule.

 

[yorkie]

Good question.

As Motherwell is not an appropriate DRP (destination routeing point) for this journey, does that deny us the right to use an otherwise valid local journey from Glasgow (which is an appropriate DRP) that happens to pass through Motherwell?

I am not actually sure! I'd be surprised (and impressed!) if there's anyone at Scotrail who would even understand the question, let alone be able to answer it

Do different booking engines give different results on this? It would be interesting to see if they all have the same interpretation/implementation or not...

 

[Starmill]

Do different booking engines give different results on this?

This is a good question - in order to test it we will need another example of a journey where a through train or the shortest route from the origin to an appropriate origin routing point (or from the appropriate destination routing point to the destination) which passes through another routing point that has failed the fares check.

I will try to think of one...

 

[JB_B]

My (dim) thinking is this...

(A) Via Motherwell on a direct train: yes, of course.

(B) Via Motherwell as a mapped route: no.

And A takes precedence over B.

 

[Starmill]

(B) Via Motherwell as a mapped route: no.

This is a slightly separate question. If you construct a route where your journey from your origin to appropriate origin RP is on a through train or the shortest route, and then you follow mapped routes as part of your journey, with no doubling back, on the maps shown using the relevant combination, can these pass through a routing point where you earlier did a fares check to and it failed? This will take even more thinking of an example to test it with!

 

[Paul Kelly]

Here is a related discussion: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/westerfield-ely-via-ipswich-norwich.143393/

Westerfield to Ely via Ipswich and Norwich. In this case, Norwich is an associated routeing point of the origin station Westerfield and passes the fares check, but the shortest route to it goes via two other routeing points, Ipswich and Stowmarket. Ipswich is associated with Westerfield, but Stowmarket is not.

As I said in that thread, the problem for electronic journey planners is that the instructions they follow says that the first routeing point encountered in the journey must be deemed the origin routeing point. I can't see any real logic for this other than somebody trying to simplify things to make it easier for computer programmers at some point in the past. As far as I can see, if there is

• a routeing point later in the journey that is also associated with the origin station, and
• the fares check passes, and
• the journey to that later routeing point is a valid local journey under routeing guide rules

then it makes sense to just treat that later routeing point as the origin routeing point.

This approach would work for the Glasgow Central to Coatbridge Central example, but would still fail for Westerfield to Norwich, because the latter "local" journey passes through an intermediate routeing point (Stowmarket) which is not associated with the origin station, which makes it very hard indeed to argue that it's a valid local journey!

 

[Paul Kelly]

You could just say that the main problem here is there are too many routeing points these days...

If Springburn wasn't its own routeing point then the journey would be valid (and would have been in the past) under the through trains to and from common routeing point rule.

 

[alistairlees]

Thanks all. Just at work now but will read properly later. There's quite a few issues with this journey (which is why I chose it!)

 

[John @ home]

in the routeing guide data there is a distance from Springburn to Coatbridge Central of 7.71 miles

This distance is an error. It is shorter than the distance of 7.99 miles as the crow flies (calculated using Grid references for Springburn NS606676 and Coatbridge Central NS729651).

It does look like that's the mileage via the Gartcosh Jn - Gartsherrie South Jn link ... I am pretty sure that this link presently has no passenger services.

No. That route is correctly measured by http://rmme.railmiles.me/ as 8 miles 78 chains. I agree that the link has no passenger service.

Distance: 8mi 78ch
Route: Springburn, Sighthill East Jn, Stepps, Gartcosh, Gartcosh Jn, Gartsherrie South Jn, Coatbridge F.L.T., Coatbridge Central

I agree with this calculation:

According to the Network Rail timetable, these are the shortest routes:

Shortest route from Springburn to Coatbridge Central (17.75 miles)
Springburn 0, Stepps 4, Gartcosh 6.5, Greenfaulds 12, Coatbridge Central 17.75

Alternative route within 3 miles of the shortest (19.5 miles):
Springburn 0, Glasgow Queen Street (high level) 1.25, Charing Cross (Glasgow) 2, Partick 4, Exhibition Centre (Glasgw) 5.25, Anderston 5.75, Glasgow Central 6.25, Carmyle 11.75, Mount Vernon 13, Baillieston 14.25, Bargeddie 15.5, Kirkwood 16.25, Whifflet 18.75, Coatbridge Central 19.

In addition, there are two permitted routes shorter than the shortest route wholly by rail:

Route shorter than the shortest permitted route from Springburn to Coatbridge Central (14 miles):
Springburn 0, Glasgow Queen Street (high level) 1.25, (walk) Glasgow Central 1.25, Carmyle 6.75, Mount Vernon 8, Baillieston 9.25, Bargeddie 10.5, Kirkwood 11.25, Whifflet 13.75, Coatbridge Central 14.

Route shorter than the shortest permitted route from Springburn to Coatbridge Central (16 miles):
Springburn 0, Barnhill 0.25, Alexandra Parade 1.5, Duke Street (Glasgow) 1.75, Bellgrove 2.25, High Street (Glasgow) 2.75, Glasgow Queen Street (low level) 3.25, (walk) Glasgow Central 3.25, Carmyle 8.75, Mount Vernon 10, Baillieston 11.25, Bargeddie 12.5, Kirkwood 13.25, Whifflet 15.75, Coatbridge Central 16.

In addition, there are several routes via Motherwell which are not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route wholly by rail. The shortest of these is:

Route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest permitted route from Springburn to Coatbridge Central (18.75 miles):
Springburn 0, Glasgow Queen Street (high level) 1.25, (walk) Glasgow Central 1.25, Argyle Street (Glasgow) 1.75, Bridgeton 3, Dalmarnock 3.5, Rutherglen 4.25, Cambuslang 6, Uddingston 9.25, Motherwell 13.5, Whifflet 18, Coatbridge Central 18.75.

 

[Starmill]

No. That route is correctly measured by http://rmme.railmiles.me/ as 8 miles 78 chains

I agree that this is probably the more correct figure. However it is likely from the Network Rail mileage data which varies significantly from the electronic routing guide data. Online journey planners won't be using the Network Rail data. As I understand it, the public instructions state that the mileage from the National Rail Timetable is to be used, calculated manually. I wonder if the PDFs have this link shown? I haven't got time now but I'll look later if nobody else does.

 

[Starmill]

You could just say that the main problem here

I agree - I seem to recall October 2013 was when a significant number of new routing points were added? The number of maps also grew significantly I think, which are quite negative changes for usability and often open up as many anomalies as they close.

 

[Starmill]

This approach would work for the Glasgow Central to Coatbridge Central example, but would still fail for Westerfield to Norwich, because the latter "local" journey passes through an intermediate routeing point (Stowmarket) which is not associated with the origin station, which makes it very hard indeed to argue that it's a valid local journey!

How fascinating. This is yet another case then, so if Norwich is deemed an appropriate origin routing point but the shortest route to it passes through a routing point that isn't even associated with the origin, the results of the fares check is null rather than fail. If Ipswich is a pass then this isn't actually travelling via a location that has failed a fares check. Although I understand what you mean about the journey planner requirement to use the first routing point.

It makes a bit of a mock of using time and resources conducting fares checks and looking up easements for them if there are going to be cases where the journey to a routing point that's been deemed appropriate is then going to be impossible...

 

[yorkie]

RDG have changed the Routeing Guide to invoke the common routeing point rule; travel via Glasgow (which was previously a mapped route) is no longer mapped and booking engines such as Trainline no longer return any itineraries via Glasgow.

I wonder if RDG obtained permission from the DfT for this change? I suspect not, as I'd be amazed if the DfT gave an answer that quickly.

 

[alistairlees]

I think the intention was to add via Greenfaulds (it's way quicker, most of the time), rather than to disallow a route. But it shows how hard it is to make changes without unintended consequences.

 

[yorkie]

If they intended to allow via Greenfaulds and not to disallow a route, then all they needed to do was to remove the erroneous mileage link.

Whoever changed the entry for Coatbridge Central so that it is associated with Springburn knew exactly what they were doing.

 

[John @ home]

RDG have changed the Routeing Guide to invoke the common routeing point rule

I agree that they have changed the Routeing Guide and that Coatbridge Central and Whifflet are now associated with Springburn routeing point.

travel via Glasgow (which was previously a mapped route) is no longer permitted.

I don't agree that the changes have this effect. My calculations in post #14 did not include any mapped routes. In my opinion, permitted Springburn to Coatbridge Central routes remain:

• the shortest route wholly by rail (17.75 miles: Springburn, Greenfaulds, Coatbridge Central)
• two routes shorter than the shortest route wholly by rail
  • 14 miles: Springburn, Glasgow Queen Street (high level), (walk) Glasgow Central, Whifflet, Coatbridge Central
  • 16 miles: Springburn, Glasgow Queen Street (low level), (walk) Glasgow Central, Whifflet, Coatbridge Central
• a number of routes not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route wholly by rail
  • 19.5 miles: Springburn, Glasgow Queen Street (high level), Partick, Whifflet, Coatbridge Central
  • 18.75 miles: Springburn, Glasgow Queen Street (high level), (walk) Glasgow Central, Dalmarnock, Motherwell, Coatbridge Central, and
  • a number of routes similar to the last with minor deviations in south Glasgow.

 

[yorkie]

...

• the shortest route wholly by rail (17.75 miles: Springburn, Greenfaulds, Coatbridge Central)....

That is the contractual position as per the National Rail Conditions of Travel and National Rail Timetable, however the mileage used by booking engines is only 16.9 miles for the shortest route.

I can get itineraries via Glasgow but only if I specify via Whifflet.

 

[kieron]

The mileage figures used by booking engines aren't all that close to the one in the timetable anywhere in the country (just take Derby-Alfreton via Chesterfield as an example). There's nothing special about Lanarkshire here.

It is a pity that someone's clearly changed the format of the NRT to make it more tabular, but hasn't been able to implement the distances from it on any of the web sites.