Sprinter preservation?

Discussion in 'Railtours & Preservation' started by Bittern, 30 Oct 2011.

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  1. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I've no doubt that an example, or probably several, of each will be preserved when the time comes, a 150 or 156'd be simpler and less expensive to maintain than a 158, mind.

    Anyway, 153s are going the same way as the Pacer, Doomed? Slightly melodramatic, isn't it? Anyway, don't these new rules, whatever they are exactly, don't come in until about 2020 or whatever? heavens, surely they'd be about ready for retirement then anyway. So talking about what would need to be done to make them compliant is all a bit academic, is what I'd think.
     
  2. tom1649

    tom1649 Member

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    It would be great to see a 153 or 156 returned to original condition complete with grey and red chevron seat fabric and Ashbourne seating. In fact if you took a Scotrail 156 you wouldn't even have to change the seats to achieve this.
     
  3. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

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    The sprinters are no-where near ready for withdrawal, however when that time comes I would like to see at least one of each class preserved, especially 150001, which should go to the SVR.

    The 153s should be reformed back into 155s to comply with the DDA thing but when that time comes, groups should be able to take a few units to preserve as 153s, for the reasons mentioned beforehand in other posts.
     
  4. Yew

    Yew Established Member

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    Personally I can't see 153's being made into 155's properly, I think just coupling them with the small cabs together is more likely.
     
  5. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

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    Here's a completely random thought, if 153/155s are mk3 derived, then could they be coupled to work with mk3 coaches: are the engines powerful enough so you could have a couple of mk3s top and tailed with 153s?
    Code:
    eg.       153 + mk3 + mk3 + 153
    Then they would be DDA compliant (once mk3s have been converted) and would increase capacity. Could this work?
     
  6. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    The 153s/155s aren't really mark 3 derived though, they're Leyland products that use Leyland bodyshells: I'm not sure that they're derived from bus parts like the Pacers are, but certain features, such as the windows, certainly look like they are. The 150s and 156s are more based on the mark 3 bodyshell.

    Such a proposal was discussed in quite a recent thread; and I think the general consensus was that no, it would not be possible: The mark 3s would have to be fitted with BSI couplers, and the electrical systems are probably incompatible. Plus you've got to consider the extra power draw that would be required if a 153 was also providing electricity for the auxillary systems of an additional trailer as well as for itself, and in terms of the extra weight, in my experience 153s are quite slow off the mark anyway when they've only got themselves to shift.

    Although that said, many of the 121s used to haul/push around driving trailers back in BR days.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    It might be a useful feature to retain the small cab at the inner ends of each carriage to act as a shunting cab at times when the unit needs to be split.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I reckon that 150001 is historically significant enough to deserve its' rightful place in the National Collection, but given that the NRM, and Locomotion, don't really have suitable storage space for a 3-car DMU, it's quite feasible that it could be loaned out to the SVR; much like Midland Compound 1000 has been up until recently.
     
  7. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    two 153s + two mk3s'd have what, 570 hp for four coaches, and two of those coaches would be none too light; and where would power for air conditioning & c come from?
    The 153 are not exactly Mk3 derived; they're derived more from Leyland National bodyshells.

    Why would, if 153s were to be made compliant with this Regulation, they need to be converted back to 155s? What does this Regulation require exactly? I suppose it's about things like door width and accessible toilets and so on, is it? So is the idea that there would only be room for these if you took the cab out at one end?
     
  8. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

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    The reason that 153s would go back to being 155s is because once they have all the new toilets etc, there will be very little actual seating left which isn't viable to work with if they're running around a single units.
     
  9. ACE1888

    ACE1888 Member

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    2nd generation DMU preservation? Damn good idea
    Will be really interesting to see what will replace them all when the time comes, hopefully at least a few quid more and on bogies unlike the 'Pacers'???:(
     
  10. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    In short, no! :(

    The engines on Class 153s are woefully gutless, the units are known for being underpowered. If you were to attach a 40-odd ton trailer to the powered cars the whole ensemble would struggle to accelerate to double figures!

    I'm not entirely certain what the DDA implications are for the 153s, but I would think it pretty certain that one way or another they will remain in service beyond the deadline. They're not bad little units really.

    Bear in mind the recent FGW 'hybrid' set formed of a 153 and half of a 150/2 set; if the 153s really can't be updated or re-formed into 155s, there remains the possibility of using them as centre cars simply to strengthen existing Sprinter sets.
     
  11. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    Would it (purely hyperthetically, while we seem to be so concerned with prolonging the life of the tincans as long as we possibly can) be feasible to re-engine them, with say 450 hp Cummins? (Or whatever the equivalent that may be available by whatever hypothetical date we're talking about)? Or by this far-off date in the future, there'd probably be as much power available from something half the size by then, and probably be fuelled by liquid nitrogen or whatever they might come up with.
     
  12. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    It might not be impossible to refit the units with the 483hp MTU engine that is under the 172s I suppose, though only if the units are going to be life extended to, say, 2030 does it make financial sense. If that were to be the case, you would hope that any Sprinter preservation group would make sure that they acquired a few of the original Cummins NT855 power units for retro-fitting back into any unit that makes it into preservation, in the same way that the 125 Group have got their hands on one or more Valentas from the HST power car re-engining programme.

    Even better, try fitting a 153 with a 750hp Cummins QSK19 as fitted to the 180s, 185s and 22X family, or the current emissions compliant equivalent, and see them really earn the title of "tin rockets"! :lol:
     
  13. scotsman

    scotsman Established Member

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    I look forward to driving sprinter of some sort in the next couple of decades. I could see one making it's way to a preserved railway north of the border, and damn me if I'm not going to drive it (if I'm not a driver on a preserved railway by then, something must be up!)
     
  14. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    The 159 is technically branded as a Turbo, even through it's based on an Express Sprinter, named by NSE rather than RR
     
  15. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    All the 159s are modified 158s. The twenty two 159/0s were modified before entering service in the early nineties, as they would have originally been 158873-894 but Regional Railways felt that they had an oversupply of units. The eight 159/1s are converted former Transpennine Express 3-car 158s.
     
  16. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    But like I said in my post it's limited to running one single line and I don't think is permitted to run in passenger service on the mainline anyway. So personally I don't count it as being in the same league as a 153 when it comes to talking about single car units on the mainline.
     
  17. trentside

    trentside Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Like others have said, I'm not sure Sprinter preservation is an immediate concern. Certainly not this side of 2020 anyway...

    I'd definitely like to see an example from each class preserved and certainly think 150001 deserves a place in this. While some see the 158s as complicated, I'm sure one or two will find their way into preservation - I know opinions are divided on them, but I for one like them.
     
  18. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    I recall reading an article sometime ago about the ever-increasing EU regs on emissions, and the potential problems it is likely to cause the railways in the future. Essentially, it could end up being the case that the replacement of any engine would require the new item to be fully compliant with the latest rules. This would even apply to a like-for-like engine swap, as happens now as a matter of course when DMU engines are sent off for rebuilds. This would result in massive modification being required so that current generation DMU stock can be fitted with brand spanking new EU-friendly lumps. The problem is that these lumps come with all kinds of extra baggage, in particular a great big tank of 'AdBlue' additive, and there is some real concern over where it's all gonna go in the tight space available under the solebar.

    So, to answer the original question, it might well be a 'no'! :|
     
  19. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    Still, there probably won't be an EU by then. :|
     
  20. stationpilot

    stationpilot Member

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    Rather than fitting DDA complient toilets to the 153s, why not remove the toilets completely such as the class 376s with South Eastern, it may limit the uses, but are there really that many journeys of over 57 minutes that just have a single car unit?

    There is also scope there to increase seating capacity with the removal of the toilets.

    Also hasn't the RHC committed some form of "Sprinter" to the national collection?
     
  21. LE Greys

    LE Greys Established Member

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    Well, I'd like to see it, but maybe not quite yet. Besides, where would they run? I can't really see steam lines running Pacers and Sprinters except on occasional DMU galas or if they want a year-round weekday service. Having said that, I'd pay for a bit of Super Sprinter travel if they did get phased out. Like Bittern, I have a soft spot for them.
     
  22. 142094

    142094 Established Member

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    Weardale Railway runs a Pacer all the time
     
  23. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Cumbrian Coast Line, Clitheroe - Victoria via Bolton (Coupled to a 150/1), numerous runs around Leeds. etc etc.
     
  24. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    Let's sincerely hope so.....
     
  25. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    Central Wales , for one...
     
  26. 156402

    156402 Member

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    Surely, the point is to set some kind of group up now, to exsist when the opportunties arise for preservation or least, to start fundraising to purchase spares as units come up for refurbishment.

    A classic case of this is the FSR 156's which retain original base seating. No doubt when these get a full refurb then these seats will become available and ideal for any eventual preserved 156.

    I would certainly support or assist with any set up of a 156 Preservation Group.
     
  27. scotsman

    scotsman Established Member

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    These were fully refurbed less than 10 years ago...
     
  28. ACE1888

    ACE1888 Member

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    Preservation, to me anyway, is about moving with the times, if 'sprinter' fans want to start a group and save a unit, good luck to them. If you stagnate in life, you wilt and die away, simple as that.
     
  29. 156402

    156402 Member

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    Yes, I appreciate they were refurb'd but they retained the original style seats unlike most other TOC's where they were wholley replaced!

    Think the view on this site, proves this fact!:

    http://dysgraphyk.madasafish.com/156/class156fsr.htm

     
  30. Techniquest

    Techniquest Veteran Member

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    And some of those seats are getting really worn out!
     
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