St Margarets London to Greenwich (GNW) - Must go via London?!

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BOBmcbob

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Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (You must travel via London. Transfer between London Stations is available on the Docklands Light Railway and First Capital Connect (Thameslink Route) or by foot. Travel is not available on London Underground.)

My Job has moved once more and I'm looking at various routes to Canary Wharf , without buying an overpriced travelcard.

I've stumbled upon this ticket to Greenwich, wondering if i could use to it get to Canary Wharf via the DLR - Presumably I'd have to go to London Bridge then walk to Bank and re-enter as this ticket doesn't cover the underground ?!

I wanted to go via the NLL and avoid the tube completely, but according the national rail.co.uk it says the ticket 'must be via london'. Would this be shown on the ticket as a restriction?

I don't really understand why the ticket says I must travel via London, is there a valid reason for this?

What would stop me taking the drain from Waterloo and DLR at Bank, is the drain fully part of the underground for ticketing purposes? I know it used to be part of BR back in the day? And why would I take FCC services to get to Greenwich?


Can one of you ticketing gurus give me some advice!

Thanks,
Bob
 
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yorkie

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Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (You must travel via London. Transfer between London Stations is available on the Docklands Light Railway and First Capital Connect (Thameslink Route) or by foot. Travel is not available on London Underground.)

My Job has moved once more and I'm looking at various routes to Canary Wharf , without buying an overpriced travelcard.
There are very cheap Oyster PAYG fares for use via the North London Line & DLR from Richmond (£2.20 peak / £1.40 off peak), however these are not available from St Margarets (London) [[stn]SMG[/stn]], the reason appears to be because SMG-Richmond is a NR 'red route' which means it attracts a premium for a journey when combined with a non-NR route (see http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx )
I've stumbled upon this ticket to Greenwich, wondering if i could use to it get to Canary Wharf via the DLR
Interestingly, the text you quote says that the DLR can be used, but I was under the impression there should be a "+" for that (it could be argued it is implied on the Crossing London page, but it doesn't explicitly say what to do when a ticket is routed London but without the +)

- Presumably I'd have to go to London Bridge then walk to Bank and re-enter as this ticket doesn't cover the underground ?!
Erm, no, that definitely wouldn't be allowed. If you are allowed to use the DLR, it would be from Stratford, however I am not sure you can even do that.
I wanted to go via the NLL and avoid the tube completely, but according the national rail.co.uk it says the ticket 'must be via london'. Would this be shown on the ticket as a restriction?
The ticket is routed "LONDON NOT UND".

I don't really understand why the ticket says I must travel via London, is there a valid reason for this?
Unless you take a really convoluted route, the only sensible routes are via London.

The most sensible route is to change at Waterloo and walk over the bridge to Waterloo East (you may also need to change at London Bridge).

What would stop me taking the drain from Waterloo
Many people are probably unfamiliar with the term "the drain", so for the benefit of those people, it refers to the Waterloo & City Line. This is a London Underground line, the ticket is routed Not Underground, so no...
and DLR at Bank, is the drain fully part of the underground for ticketing purposes? I know it used to be part of BR back in the day?
It changed hands on 1 April 1994. Scarily, someone born on that day is now 18 years old!
And why would I take FCC services to get to Greenwich?
Sorry, I don't understand the question. What did you have in mind?
 

W-on-Sea

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Would a zone 2-4 travelcard do the trick?


St Margarets is in Zone 4, going round the North London Line to stratford keeps you in zones 2 and 3,and then the DLR to the Wharf or Greenwich would also be in Zone 2.

£968 per annum (£93 for a monthly, or £24.20 for a weekly)

Unless there's something I missed, that seems to be the best option for the requirements you describe.

The only problem I can see is that Oyster might have expected that this route would have gone via Zone 1, and charge accordingly. There are certainly pink route validators at Stratford, and i think also at Richmond, but I'm not 100% certain that touching on these would be guaranteed not to charge you an excess (via Zone 1) fare. Perhaps someone who knows more than I do about such matters might be able to help. Failing that, is it still possible to buy travelcards in paper form? That would be fine.
 

MikeWh

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I think the text about FCC and DLR is common to any season where cross London travel may require use of either, or foot. In the case of this journey, the only applicable option is foot between Waterloo and Waterloo East.

The suggestion of a zone 2-4 travelcard is a good one, especially if you are prepared to go the long way round via Stratford. A paper travelcard would work fine for your commute, but if you want to make other journeys around London by rail you will be better off with a travelcard on Oyster because then you would not have pay to travel through your zones when mixing the travelcard with PAYG.

The lack of alternative fares from St Margarets to Canary Wharf is actually because the fare setters felt that the additional change required at Richmond would make that journey unattractive. This does present a problem if you use a travelcard on Oyster because a touch in at St Margarets and touch out at Canary Wharf will likely result in a zone 1 single being deducted from PAYG. However, if St Margarets isn't gated then you are fine to not touch in or out there and just do so at Canary Wharf. If you do need to touch in at St Margarets then you need to touch out and back in again at Richmond. That will split the journey in two and give you the alternative routes. You shouldn't need to touch the pink validator at Stratford because these are designed for PAYG only.
 

yorkie

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All you need to do is 'split' the journey, such as :

St Margarets - Richmond and Richmond - Greenwich
or
St Margarets - Stratford and Stratford - Greenwich

I'm unsure which location, and which method, is easiest to do this. Edit: See MikeWh's advice above.
 

MikeWh

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Further thought for the future. The default route for this journey may well change once the Overground link between Clapham Junction and Surrey Quays opens.
 

John @ home

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I've stumbled upon this ticket [St Margarets London to Greenwich], ... it says the ticket 'must be via london'. Would this be shown on the ticket as a restriction?
Yes. The ticket shows:
Origin: ST MARGARETS LDN
Destination: GREENWICH
Route: LONDON NOT UND.

My calculation of valid routes from St Margarets (London) [SMG] to Greenwich [GNW] route London Not Underground is:
  1. Direct trains from St Margarets (London) to Greenwich. There are none.
    .
  2. Shortest Route: 19.25 miles
    • St Margarets (London)
    • Richmond (London)
    • North Sheen
    • Mortlake
    • Barnes
    • Putney
    • Wandsworth Town
    • Clapham Junction
    • Battersea Park
    • Wandsworth Road
    • Clapham High Street
    • Denmark Hill
    • Elephant & Castle
    • London Blackfriars
    • London Bridge
    • Deptford
    • Greenwich
    .
  3. Any route via London Not Underground which is not more than 3 miles longer than the Shortest Route
    .
  4. Any mapped Route via London Not Underground My calculation of mapped routes is:

    The National Routeing Guide tells us that "for all journeys via London you will need to cross reference routeing codes applicable "to London" with the code for the "from London" leg of the journey."

    The only appropriate Routeing Point (RP) for St Margarets (London) for a St Margarets (London) - Greenwich journey is Richmond (London). Appropriate RPs for Greenwich for a St Margarets (London) - Greenwich journey are London Group and Charlton. Mapped Routes which pass the fares check are shown on maps:

    Richmond (London) - London Group:
    • OV. This allows St Margarets (London) - Richmond (London) - Willesden Jn - London Euston
    • TW. This allows St Margarets (London) - Richmond (London) - Barnes - Clapham Jn - London Waterloo

    London Group - Charlton:
    • CT. This allows London Group - New Cross - Lewisham - Charlton - Greenwich.

I don't really understand why the ticket says I must travel via London, is there a valid reason for this?
Condition 13(d) of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage allows train companies to restrict the use of some tickets to trains which take routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations provided the restrictions are shown on the ticket. That has happened in this instance.

I agree with yorkie above that:
  • DLR Bank - Canary Wharf can not be used with this ticket, and
  • the Waterloo and City Line is fully part of the underground for ticketing purposes and can not normally be used with a ticket route Not Underground.
 

W-on-Sea

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@John@home,

This is a shorter route that complies with those terms of LONDON NOT UND (miles from railmiles)

10.825 miles
St Margarets (Greater London), Richmond, North Sheen, Mortlake, Barnes, Putney, Wandsworth Town, Clapham Junction, West London Junction, Queenstown Road (Battersea), Nine Elms Junction, Vauxhall, London Waterloo

plus
4.675
London Waterloo East, Metropolitan Junction, Borough Market Junction, London Bridge, Deptford, Greenwich

Total 15.5 miles
 

yorkie

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The calculation of the shortest route depends on whether you enforce a walk or not, and in this particular example, also depends on whether you consider Waterloo to Waterloo East to be a walk or not ;)

Of course, we all know that Waterloo and Waterloo East are adjacent to each other (a bit like Wigan North Western & Wigan Wallgate, except slightly further but with a covered walkway!) but this is still not adequately defined (and I'm not sure I'd push for a definition, because it could be used as a way of denying us access to permitted routes in future).
 
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