St Pancras-Ashford-Gravesend?

[DJ737]

G'day

On my upcoming trip to the UK, I will be visiting Ashford in Kent on one of the days, but I am not keen on using one of my Britrail pass days for this trip.

I had a look at the Southeastern website and found a £16.00 Anytime single from St Pancras to Gravesend on a train that takes about 3 hours and calls at Ashford and then around the Kent coast back to Gravesend.

Would I be OK to use this ticket to travel to Ashford, break the journey and continue to Gravesend later in the day, I will need to get from Gravesend back to Walthamstow and can I do that on Oyster using buses?

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

 

[James Wake]

G'day

On my upcoming trip to the UK, I will be visiting Ashford in Kent on one of the days, but I am not keen on using one of my Britrail pass days for this trip.

I had a look at the Southeastern website and found a £16.00 Anytime single from St Pancras to Gravesend on a train that takes about 3 hours and calls at Ashford and then around the Kent coast back to Gravesend.

Would I be OK to use this ticket to travel to Ashford, break the journey and continue to Gravesend later in the day, I will need to get from Gravesend back to Walthamstow and can I do that on Oyster using buses?

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

I can't help with the train, but the closest Tfl bus stop to use Oyster to Gravesend is at Bluewater Shopping Centre, you can get a 96 to Plumstead, a 422 or 472 to North Greenwich, a 108 to Stratford then a 69 to Walthamstow Central, will take a while though and you will have to get an Arriva Kent service (which doesn't accept Oyster) down to Bluewater from Gravesend.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Simple answer - whilst you could, if you wanted, travel the long way round to Gravesend from St Pancras on your £16 ticket, you absolutely cannot use it to break your journey at Ashford. This is because making the journey that way is not a 'permitted route' and is only allowed provided you don't change trains or break your journey.

If it were that easy to undercut the £35.30 fare for an Anytime Single from St Pancras to Ashford on the High Speed service, then everyone would be doing it....!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I had a look at the Southeastern website and found a £16.00 Anytime single from St Pancras to Gravesend on a train that takes about 3 hours and calls at Ashford and then around the Kent coast back to Gravesend.

Would I be OK to use this ticket to travel to Ashford, break the journey and continue to Gravesend later in the day, I will need to get from Gravesend back to Walthamstow and can I do that on Oyster using buses?

The Gravesend ticket is only valid on that train via Ashford because of the direct trains rule- tickets are nearly always valid on direct trains (there's the odd exception), even where they take a circuitous route.

If you break your journey you're no longer on a direct train, therefore the ticket is not valid.

The nearest TfL buses are at Bluewater shopping centre, so you would need to get from Gravesend to Bluewater to use Oyster from there.

 

[yorkie]

Would I be OK to use this ticket to travel to Ashford...

I do not believe you can claim your ticket is valid due to the through trains rule, and then break your journey.

We've had this debate before, some people disagree but IMO it's not valid for break of journey.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm going to once again refer people to the Gainsborough - Adwick thread where there was a lengthy discussion about break of journey when using a route that is only valid by virtue of the direct trains rule.

 

[yorkie]

By the way, when is your trip?

 

[RJ]

G'day

On my upcoming trip to the UK, I will be visiting Ashford in Kent on one of the days, but I am not keen on using one of my Britrail pass days for this trip.

I had a look at the Southeastern website and found a £16.00 Anytime single from St Pancras to Gravesend on a train that takes about 3 hours and calls at Ashford and then around the Kent coast back to Gravesend.

Would I be OK to use this ticket to travel to Ashford, break the journey and continue to Gravesend later in the day, I will need to get from Gravesend back to Walthamstow and can I do that on Oyster using buses?

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

I'd say no. There are other options available to undercut the London to Ashford fare, but you'll have to think outside the box.

 

[DJ737]

By the way, when is your trip?

Monday 04 May

 

[yorkie]

To clarify, I meant your "trip to the UK" Maybe there are some forum events you might be interested in while you're here. I'll send you a PM.

We plan to travel on HS1 round the Kent Coast, though for a much cheaper price, and not on the 4th of May unfortunately. Anyone interested, PM me.

 

[NeilWatson]

Mon 4th May is a Bank Holiday, which may affect the journey?

 

[embers25]

On 1147 from Gravesend to St Pancras the long way round now and guard from Ramsgate "let me off" but said Any Permitted meant the short way only as quoted in the routeing guide. I explained that through services are also valid as per the routeing guide and was told that was anew one for him and as the routeing guide was so thick he couldn't possibly be expected to know it.I said I understood but that the through services rule was a basic rule and didn't require any swallowing of the routeing guide.He said I was wrong and should have the name and contact info or someone at Southeastern that approved me.I gave him the name and mobile of the guy I talked to at Southeastern.he said he didn't know him so I should get a letter.I suggested that maybe it was a training gap as no one at Southeastern seems to know about it without prompting.With that he muttered a few sarcastic comments, ended with "enjoy you day" and hasn't been back yet! This is nuts.how can the routeing guide only apply when guard wants and not when he doesn't.

 

[yorkie]

Through trains are valid as per the NRCoC.

No need to consult the Routeing Guide.

Details in our Fares Guide

 

[embers25]

Through trains are valid as per the NRCoC.

No need to consult the Routeing Guide.

Details in our Fares Guide

I am very aware of that even though he isn't. I've called to protest to Southeastern in Tonbridge again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Guard just returned having been told he was wrong and was very apologetic so fare play to him.

 

[RJ]

On 1147 from Gravesend to St Pancras the long way round now and guard from Ramsgate "let me off" but said Any Permitted meant the short way only as quoted in the routeing guide. I explained that through services are also valid as per the routeing guide and was told that was anew one for him and as the routeing guide was so thick he couldn't possibly be expected to know it.I said I understood but that the through services rule was a basic rule and didn't require any swallowing of the routeing guide.He said I was wrong and should have the name and contact info or someone at Southeastern that approved me.I gave him the name and mobile of the guy I talked to at Southeastern.he said he didn't know him so I should get a letter.I suggested that maybe it was a training gap as no one at Southeastern seems to know about it without prompting.With that he muttered a few sarcastic comments, ended with "enjoy you day" and hasn't been back yet! This is nuts.how can the routeing guide only apply when guard wants and not when he doesn't.

Good luck with that. It's in Condition 13 of the NRCoC, which is referenced on the reverse side of every ticket. However, Southeastern still seem to be under the misimpression that the NRCoC does not apply to services that run on HS1, so you might have some institutional obstacles to overcome first!

 

[embers25]

Good luck with that. It's in Condition 13 of the NRCoC, which is referenced on the reverse side of every ticket. However, Southeastern still seem to be under the misimpression that the NRCoC does not apply to services that run on HS1, so you might have some institutional obstacles to overcome first!

When he came back later to apologise I did say that technically it wasn't his fault as it is well known by many that Southeastern don't believe that any rules apply to their services and that training their staff effectively is not high on their list of priorities..he just smiled and said he had forwarded a message about this issue to every guard he knows so they don't get caught out as none of the ones he checked with knew!!!!! So again, props to him for at least trying to make things right. Again though, I shouldn't have this much hassle with such a basic thing. I'm guessing he thought mentioning the routeing guide would baffle me but when I offered to pull it up for him on my phone he looked quite shocked! He thought Gravesend to Woking was bad but when I told him you could get a Ebbsfleet to Gravesend ticket with railcard discount for £2.40 singe and £2.50 return and do it he was shocked!

All in all the first "discussion" was a poor reflection on Southeastern training not the guard and the second apology was a guard doing what he could to make it right so I bear no grudge with the guard at all just the usual frustration with Southeastern AND my ticket STILL doesn't work in the barriers at St Pancras Hi Speed which is crazy and annoying as staff are not quick to assist there.

 

[talldave]

Could I ask what ticket you were using?

[Moving to Gravesend shortly, so trying to understand my options for rail travel!]

 

[Merseysider]

I fear that all this attention drawn to this ticket will only hasten its demise, in useful terms anyway

 

[RJ]

Could I ask what ticket you were using?

[Moving to Gravesend shortly, so trying to understand my options for rail travel!]

Since Southeastern introduced St Pancras circular services via Ashford, Ramsgate and the North Kent Coast, it has opened up opportunities to buy tickets like Ebbsfleet to Gravesend and travel via the coast under the direct train rule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I fear that all this attention drawn to this ticket will only hasten its demise, in useful terms anyway

I'm quite entertained by people's anecdotes on reactions to loophole tickets. Once it has actually been used and flagged, it's only a matter of time before it gets fixed (in most cases) so there's not much harm in posting about it.

In any case, ATOC are already aware of this HS1 and direct trains situation.

 

[yorkie]

Could I ask what ticket you were using?

[Moving to Gravesend shortly, so trying to understand my options for rail travel!]

A ticket from Gravesend to anywhere on a direct train is valid provided you remain on board. So an Ebbsfleet return is a cheap day out if you enjoy rail travel.

Nothing to do with the Routeing Guide so a negative easement can't stop it.

They will probably do what Scotrail did with the Fife Circle and make it terminate somewhere in the next timetable

 

[embers25]

A ticket from Gravesend to anywhere on a direct train is valid provided you remain on board. So an Ebbsfleet return is a cheap day out if you enjoy rail travel.

Nothing to do with the Routeing Guide so a negative easement can't stop it.

They will probably do what Scotrail did with the Fife Circle and make it terminate somewhere in the next timetable

As far as Faversham the platforms advertised it as terminating at Ramsgate which made sense and avoids confusion with direct Dover trains. Beyond Faversham I couldn't read the boards but several passengers got on at Birchington and Herne Bay commenting on how good it was to have a direct train to Folkestone and how they didn't realise it went there until today so I'm not sure where it's destination is displayed as there. On board it's Ramsgate until it arrives there and on approach the guard announces for through passengers to remain on board. I suspect going forwards it's likely to be split at Ramsgate or Faversham but who knows. It is VERY empty off peak in both directions between Chatham and Dover both ways and does feel like a big waste of high speed stock trundling around Kent for 3.5 hours at 80mph or less but the connectivity is a good idea.

 

[thebigcheese]

Would the introduction of a higher priced "Via Dover" route prevent the "Plus High Speed" ticket from being used in this way?

 

[RJ]

Would the introduction of a higher priced "Via Dover" route prevent the "Plus High Speed" ticket from being used in this way?

The price is irrelevant. The only way to invalidate it is to either split the service, change the rule abouy direct trains or add a negative restriction to the route shown on the ticket.

 

[Merseysider]

The price is irrelevant. The only way to invalidate it is to either split the service, change the rule about direct trains or add a negative restriction to the route shown on the ticket.

FUD works wonders too.

One debatable way of doing it would be to make certain stops pickup/set down only.

 

[yorkie]

Would the introduction of a higher priced "Via Dover" route prevent the "Plus High Speed" ticket from being used in this way?

No. Any Permitted still means Any Permitted irrespective of any higher priced tickets