St Pancras - Kent - St Pancras

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Inspector999, 11 Jun 2015.

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  1. Inspector999

    Inspector999 Member

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    Some of the High Speed services from St Pancras to Kent continue round the circuit and return to St Pancras. The continuation is shown via a footnote to the relevant services in Table 194.

    e.g. 0825 weekdays departure from St Pancras goes out to Dover Priory (arr 1047) via Faversham - note B indicates "to St Pancras International"

    The onward journey seems to be missing from the National rail timetable, but the Southeastern timetable (table B) clearly shows the train departing Dover Priory 1049 arriving Ashford International 1115 then switching to the reverse direction table (Table A) departing Ashford International at 1116 arriving St Pancras 1144 (having departed Gravesend at 0847).

    1) Is a Rochester to London Travelcard Zones 1-6 season ticket valid Rochester to London - via the "long way round" - I would presume it is as it a direct service.

    2) Does this also allow journeys to/from intermediate stations on the "long way round" routing (provided the trains used are the St Pancras - St Pancras services?). Or does the valid at all intermediate stations between the Rochester and London Zones 1-6 stations for the season ticket only apply to the "shortest route(s)"?
     
  2. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    1) Yes, provided it is routed +High Speed

    2) It's debatable. In my opinion, it would, but I think the majority view is that it is not permitted. Certainly if SE view it as an attempt to travel from those intermediate stations for a lower fare, which they would, expect trouble.
     
  3. Inspector999

    Inspector999 Member

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    Yes it is +High Speed.

    As for breaking the journey not an attempt to obtain a lower fare, more likely an attempt to have lunch - but I take the point you are making.
     
  4. Kentish Paul

    Kentish Paul Member

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    Has anyone tried the "long way round" route yet? I seem to remember that when leaving St Pancras the trains do not show St Pancras as the destination (probably Ramsgate or similar) but the timetable does.
     
  5. westcoaster

    westcoaster Established Member

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    Arethe trains the same headcode all the way around.
     
  6. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Yes, there was a forum meet a couple of months ago where about 10 of us spent 3 hours going the long way round Kent on ridiculously cheap loophole tickets. Unfortunately, some of us had tickets that were too cheap for SE's liking and ran into a spot of bother before the journey began.

    If you can prove that a service was advertised as a through train when you bought your ticket then theoretically you should have no issues. Eg a printed timetable that says "valid xx May - xx September" or whatever.
     
  7. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    The direct train rule means you have to use a direct train for your journey. Break of journey or change of train doesn't come under the scope of that. As such I'd recommend buying a different ticket, one which allows such privileges for your chosen journey(s).
     
  8. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Would you be able to explain why this is so? I know that clause 13(a)(i) of the NRCOC is useful in any case, as it means someone going from Blackburn to Manchester can catch any direct train with an appropriate ticket without waiting for the routeing guide to catch up.

    Clause 16 says "You may start, or break and resume, a journey ... at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use.", with some exceptions which are not relevant here.

    Is there something else which overrules this in this situation?

    I know there's a lot of stuff out there (for instance, I had to look here to find out that Inspector999's travelcard allows one journey from Rochester to the zone 6 boundary, wherever that is on HS1). I haven't found anything specific about breaking your journey on a through train, though, so I was hoping you could point me to something.
     
  9. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    I believe the argument goes along the line of "if the route is only valid because you don't change trains, you would only have a valid ticket if you didn't change trains and I don't think anyone could realistically argue that a break of journey is not a change of trains"..... Or something like that....

    However, I personally don't agree with that point of view. The NRCoC states that you can "use a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains". In my opinion, the key part is "...are able to...".
     
  10. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    That's my interpretation as well, though I wouldn't want to push it myself. Also, as Condition 16 is phrased, it could be read that the "journey" is between the origin and destination, and that it is merely being broken at an intermediate point: it remains one journey.

    This debate has been had many times before should one care to google it!

    At the St Pancras Kentish gateline I would think, or possibly the platform edge?
     
  11. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    Same here - I consider that NRCoC condition 16 stands on its own: If you break your journey on a route that is only permitted because you are using a direct train, you must continue your journey on another such train.
     
    Last edited: 12 Jun 2015
  12. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Also in agreement. Break of journey is fine on a direct train so long as the later train caught is also a direct train from origin to destination.
     
  13. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    I put that because I wasn't sure what the status of a travelcard was between Stratford and St. Pancras. The page I mentioned contains a link to this map, which shows it as being in in zone 3 with a note saying "Only Travelcards routed 'Plus High Speed' or 'Any Permitted + HS' are valid on Southeastern high speed services". There is something about the map which makes me a bit cautious about relying on it, though.

    Where the zones start doesn't matter for a season ticket, but someone with a Dartford-London "+HIGH SPEED" day travelcard could spend all day going between St. Pancras and Stratford if this is the case.
     
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