St Pancras to Luton peak time excess

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by lightbulb, 5 Jun 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. lightbulb

    lightbulb Member

    Messages:
    267
    Joined:
    15 May 2010
    Hello all,

    I have the return portion of an FSR with a DSB railcard (£26.40) from Luton to St5 Pancras. I wish to travel today on the 1715 from STP to LUT. How much is the appropriate excess? I note that the cheapest "single" is an FCR at £15.20.
     
    Last edited: 5 Jun 2015
  2. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

    Messages:
    1,895
    Joined:
    8 Jun 2005
    When was the validity start date of the ticket?
     
  3. lightbulb

    lightbulb Member

    Messages:
    267
    Joined:
    15 May 2010
  4. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

    Messages:
    1,895
    Joined:
    8 Jun 2005
    Righteo, just checking. So excessing to a first day return would not be appropriate. I would say that the appropriate ticket to excess to would be a pair of first day singles, priced at £17.75 in each direction. Thus we are excessing up to £35.50, so the difference, and hence the excess, I would make to be £9.10.
     
  5. lightbulb

    lightbulb Member

    Messages:
    267
    Joined:
    15 May 2010
    Thanks. I'm just arriving at STP now, so I'll give it a go at the EMT ticket office. I hope it won't be "computer says 'no'"...
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    No luck. The clerk said that the ticket couldn't be excessed as there isn't an FOR to excess to. I mentioned the two FDSs, but he said no. Any suggestions?
     
  6. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

    Messages:
    1,895
    Joined:
    8 Jun 2005
    It could be a tricky thing to do on their machines. You could try the other booking office, or even see if there is someone at the barriers with an Avantix who could help.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    The NRCoC state:
    "If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is
    not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the
    cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle
    will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in
    designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare. "
    http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf

    The 'cheapest valid anytime fare' is clearly the pair of first day singles. Obviously you can't just hop on the train, as it is a penalty fare area and these days the NRCoC allow a PF to be charged.
     
  7. lightbulb

    lightbulb Member

    Messages:
    267
    Joined:
    15 May 2010
    Okay, I'm now in the Thameslink ticket office queue...
     
  8. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,860
    Joined:
    3 Mar 2014
    Location:
    Merseyside
    My understanding was that a PF could not be charged if a passenger was merely traveling on a ticket that would otherwise have been valid, only traveling at the wrong time of daay, therefore they just need to pay the excess fare - and this can be done onboard.

    Has this changed all of a sudden?
     
  9. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

    Messages:
    1,895
    Joined:
    8 Jun 2005
    I don't think the PF rules allow a PF to be charged, but the NRCoC do allow them to be charged for some reason (see my quote). It is a PF I wouldn't really want to be appealing.
     
  10. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,860
    Joined:
    3 Mar 2014
    Location:
    Merseyside
    Also, the ticket you have for £26.40, is that Route: East Midland Trains Only If so, I believe I am right in saying it is not possible to excess your way out of a TOC only route.

    Also, the 2 singles at £17.75 each are Any Permitted Route so I do not think you can ecess to this because of the above. Or are there exceptions to this? i.e. can pay the excess to get out of the time restriction element but STILL remain subject to travel on EM only? (perhaps someone can advise) :)
     
  11. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

    Messages:
    1,895
    Joined:
    8 Jun 2005
    You are excessing out of a time restriction, not the route. Thus it would have to be a change of ticket type excess. The ticket would still be restricted to EMT.
     
  12. lightbulb

    lightbulb Member

    Messages:
    267
    Joined:
    15 May 2010
    Interesting! At first I was sold an FDS from Radlett to Luton. I queried it, asking what relevance Radlett had to my FSR EMT only ticket. It was refunded, and under guidance from the supervisor, I was excessed to an FDR for just £2.45. The on-board ticket staff looked at it, scribbled on the FSR, and walked away. A nice result!
     
  13. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

    Messages:
    1,895
    Joined:
    8 Jun 2005
    A nice little bonus. I hope the excess works the Luton barrier, assuming it is barrierred.
     
  14. lightbulb

    lightbulb Member

    Messages:
    267
    Joined:
    15 May 2010
    I was planning to put the FSR through, as I did at STP. I'll find out in three minutes or so...
     
  15. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

    Messages:
    1,895
    Joined:
    8 Jun 2005
    Ah, right. I'm surprised the time restricted FSR worked the STP barriers at a barred time.
     
  16. lightbulb

    lightbulb Member

    Messages:
    267
    Joined:
    15 May 2010
    No problems: as expected, the FSR opened the gates and was retained.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Ah, I hadn't realised the gates might be programmed to reject off peak tickets at peak times.
     
  17. CyrusWuff

    CyrusWuff Established Member

    Messages:
    1,842
    Joined:
    20 May 2013
    Given there is no unrestricted period return for the journey in question, I would suggest that no excess is possible and the OP SHOULD have been sold a new Single ticket and advised to either apply for a refund of the unused Return portion (which would incur an admin fee) or to retain it for use another time.

    Whilst it seems unfair, the rules for "inventing" an Anytime Return by adding together the cost of two Singles have long since disappeared from retail publications.
     
  18. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,860
    Joined:
    3 Mar 2014
    Location:
    Merseyside
    This should not have happened. you've been excessed up from a TOC restricted ticket to an Any Permitted fare - but allowed. Plus the fare you were excessed up to was a Day Return fare, but you were traveling on a period return fare (valid for 1 month)
     
  19. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

    Messages:
    1,895
    Joined:
    8 Jun 2005
    The NRCoC state:
    "If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is
    not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the
    cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle
    will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in
    designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare. "
    http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static...tent/NRCOC.pdf

    What would you say is the 'cheapest valid anytime fare' in this circumstance, if it is not a pair of singles?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I don't see the problem with this, so long as the TOC restriction is still adhered to. It is a change of ticket type, not change of route. It is the same principle as excessing an operator specific advance to a saver in this regard.

    I agree with you there, that was a bit of good fortune - I don't see how a day return could be considered the appropriate fare to excess up to, given it was a saver after its first day of validity.
     
  20. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,860
    Joined:
    3 Mar 2014
    Location:
    Merseyside
    Yorkie Would you be able to give your take on this. I think this is really interesting. Question: is it 100% allowed to have a TOC specific ticket and then "excess" to a non TOC specific ticket PROVIDED you stick to the inital TOC.

    Also, was the "day single" the right fare to excess to here given that there really was not any other. Or was this a case of, strictly speaking and as said on here "no excess is possible and the OP SHOULD have been sold a new Single ticket and advised to either apply for a refund of the unused Return portion (which would incur an admin fee) or to retain it for use another time."

    Finally, what is the process of 'adding 2 singles together'? I'd like to know where that is found in the rules.

    I'm really interested in this one because I might learn a few new things. I would also say, I am really glad :) :) :) that the passenger was able to travel on their desired train and get their excess only having to pay a small amount (luck of the day!)
     
  21. RJ

    RJ Established Member

    Messages:
    6,748
    Joined:
    25 Jun 2005
    Location:
    London
    Sounds like a FCC legacy. Their novel approach to evening peak upgrades was selling a single from Radlett, apparently to soften the blow for those travelling out off peak who would otherwise have had to pay the excess to a SDR.

    As for excesses, I'm of the view that it's dodgy to excess to a ticket that would not have covered the journey being made. I.e excessing a FSR to a FDR if returning any day after the start date.
     
    Last edited: 6 Jun 2015
  22. 34D

    34D Established Member

    Messages:
    6,011
    Joined:
    9 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    It is allowed, and staff should explain that the TOC restriction still applies. This forums ticketing guide refers: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=70374

    I shall let the boss answer the second question
     
  23. MrCub

    MrCub Member

    Messages:
    216
    Joined:
    23 May 2009
    Location:
    SE England
    As an aside here, I'm surprised the barriers opened for you. The ones at Luton seem to be permanently set to pessimism. There's always a queue of people whose tickets have been rejected; any railcard reduced tickets seem to be rejected as standard. In 8 years of regularly using Luton with either Network, Gold, or Two Together discounted tickets, they've never let me exit the station without having to go to the staff, and regularly don't let me in either!
     
  24. lightbulb

    lightbulb Member

    Messages:
    267
    Joined:
    15 May 2010
    I also hold a Gold Card (Lichfield City - Lichfield Trent Valley before the price shot up!) and on the few occasions it's worth using it instead of the DSB railcard, I always find that the barriers reject the ticket regardless of type (code 105, if I recall correctly). But no such problems with DSB discounted tickets of any type.
     
  25. CyrusWuff

    CyrusWuff Established Member

    Messages:
    1,842
    Joined:
    20 May 2013
    Whilst I agree that that is what would have been sold had the OP known they were going to be returning at a time when the FSR is not valid when they originally bought the ticket, Excess Fares rules simply don't permit excessing a Return to a Single (or a pair of Singles).

    Having said that, they also don't permit you to excess away a Railcard discount if you forget it, yet some staff will do so, even on Advance tickets.
     
  26. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

    Messages:
    1,895
    Joined:
    8 Jun 2005
    I wonder whether the truth of this matter is that the scenario wasn't considered when the rules were written. The NRCoC clearly expect there to be a fare to excess to, which in this case can only be the two singles, yet the excess fares rules, which which public have no access to, don't allow this to be done.
    I suppose on certain TIS there would be a way to fudge the excess with some general arithmetic, in order to get the answer in line with the NRCoC. I suspect in some TIS though it is plain impossible to do.
     
  27. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    34,896
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Are ticket restrictions encoded onto the ticket? Only very limited data is encoded. I was under the impression they weren't, so the barrier has no way of knowing what the restrictions are.
    This would be contrary to the NRCoC.

    If there is evidence the rail industry is not honouring the NRCoC, then my advice to those with evidence are advised contact the DfT (to report franchise breaches) and ORR (to report consumer law not being followed)
    That would surely be an oversight. I can't believe ATOC are intentionally disregarding the NRCoC...
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I suspect the TOC who control the gatelines can program them to reject specific types of railcard (though LU can't differentiate). This is considered by some in the industry to be bad practice; it's better to set the orange light and do a manual inspection after passing the barrier.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Again I suspect this is an oversight.

    Though not documented in iKB, it is the policy of some Train Companies to do this, as it's clearly sensible.

    Though some defiantly refuse to apply common sense.:|
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Yes.
    NRCoC is clear that an excess fare applies. If the correct excess cannot be calculated, then undercharging the customer is acceptable to me, but overcharging would not be acceptable in my opinion.
     
  28. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

    Messages:
    8,838
    Joined:
    14 Apr 2008
    It has been noted by quite a few Northern Guards that the number of people buying Railcard discounted tickets online or at TVMs, when they do not hold a Railcard, has noticeably increased recently (perhaps as a result of some guards/TOCs applying this "sensible", "common sense" approach you mention). Offering the excess in these cases is not, in my opinion, an option, as it invites those people, who deliberately buy cheaper tickets, to continue without the threat of being out of pocket when caught.
     
  29. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    34,896
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    A sensible policy regarding holding a Railcard discounted ticket but no Railcard is to excess it, if presented at a ticket office or on board at this first opportunity but to charge a new ticket on board of there was opportunity to do so at the origin.

    I didn't mean it should always be an excess.
     
  30. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    20,778
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    The restrictions aren't, but I think TOCs can and do set barriers to reject *all* off peak tickets at certain times, with filtering then done manually.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page