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Staff down tools at Manchester Victoria following assault 19/12/2019

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Djgr

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Let's not forget that railway staff shout at paying customers daily at Manchester Piccadilly P13/4.
 

Skymonster

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We’ve no true idea whether it was assault, verbal abuse from passenger to staff, or verbal abuse from staff to passenger that triggered this event. The delays and cancellations aren’t going to be sorted overnight so frustration will continue. Without a chain of evidence, of course the courts will do nothing. Shouting at someone isn’t a crime. By the time BTP get to the scene it will be too late to properly understand what has happened unless the there are reliable witnesses. So again, the little digital cams some staff carry (police, traffic wardens etc) are perhaps a way forward.
 

gazzaa2

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Knowing the amount and vile nature of abuse consistently directed at the platform staff (and others, traincrew cop for it too) I would be very, very surprised if that account (if true) is actually what happened/caused the walkout.

From what I can make out that was one of two incidents. I'm not sure what the other one was. Several eye witnesses on social media say that guy was shouting rather than violent.

Not sure what else went on.
 

Camden

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Apparently someone else opened a tub of Celebrations and handed them out to fellow sufferers.

Clear act of severe passive aggression, warranting shutting down a region's train service IMO.
 

BeHereNow

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Apparently it wasn't an 'assault' from someone who was there. Somewhat aggressive individual unhappy with the service. Staff, already frustrated with the chaos through Manchester on a daily basis, decided they had enough and temporarily downed tools. The aggressive passenger was the 'straw that broke the camel's back'. All very odd - and not fair on staff who are being put in difficult situations on a daily basis at Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly. Network Rail and the DfT have a lot to answer for.

Given the main cause of cancellations is staff availability, interested to know why Network Rail and DfT are at fault for today?
 

randyrippley

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posted by the Manchester Evening News at 19:55

Latest advice to passengers
“If you need help, please speak to a member of staff (if available)”

That’s now the advice greeting passengers on the departure display boards at Manchester Victoria.

The status of all services are now not being displayed

sounds like they've given up trying
 

45107

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There is no excuse for assault or abuse, it cannot be condoned. However, does it mean that all staff have to walk out? I am assuming that is what happened? All the public see are incompetent railway company management who seemingly cannot plan or execute any significant change successfully, staff that have contracts that do not represent reality e.g. Sunday not being a 'working' day and unions who 'seem' to take great pleasure in striking as much as possible due to spurious 'safety' issues which magically disappear when more money is offered. Looking in from the outside, there is no one who really comes out of this with any credit. Network Rail, TOCs, Unions, they are all rubbish and the public are the ones that suffer and the staff at the 'coalface' too, such as this incident. I appreciate that some of it is a 'perception' and everyone can probably point a finger at everyone else, but it really is a complete omni-shambles at the moment and no one seems to be able to do anything about it.
I think you are mixing things up here

You’re first few words are sympathetic to staff but then rest becomes a rant against everything railway.
For example, what does Sunday working gave to do with a member of staff being assaulted during the week ?
Why are the Network Rail, TOCs & unions at fault when a member of staff is assaulted ?
 

Carntyne

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what about staff having small cameras like some police so their is evidence and pushing assaults through the courts) then this is one area where the union should be involved, rather than wasting time over issues like DOO.

Cameras don't stop you getting a kicking, they just show you getting a kicking.

If its not safe don't do it is the mantra railway staff stick to, so if they felt unsafe or threatened then they're entirely right to stop the job.
 

Skymonster

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Cameras don't stop you getting a kicking, they just show you getting a kicking.

If its not safe don't do it is the mantra railway staff stick to, so if they felt unsafe or threatened then they're entirely right to stop the job.

Cameras provide evidence that help make cases to prosecute. Only once the message gets through that the ‘risk’ of having a go at staff is too great will behaviour be moderated.
 

Llama

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The CCTV at Victoria is already all-encompassing and very good.
 

muz379

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if staff feel it unsafe to continue working for whatever reason then they are right to protect their own health and safety and stop working . In the event of someone on a station threatening or assaulting staff that might involve all staff moving to somewhere safe .Indeed I imagine initially all staff on the station would have gone to the location of their colleague involved in the incident which in itself would cause some delays .

Dispatching trains is a safety critical task . Imagine if a dispatcher caused a dispatch incident of some sort and an investigation found that they had just been threatened or assaulted moments before dispatching the train ? They would rightly have some explaining to do .
 

bunnahabhain

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Platform duties were suspended until BTP attended for an incident reported as a member of staff assaulted, a block was put on for all traffic approaching Victoria, and BTP subsequently arrived approximately 20 minutes later with the station reopening very shortly afterwards.
 

johntea

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Seems the Northern social team have been targeted by virtual assualts too and have warned they're reporting it all to the BTP
 

Bletchleyite

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We’ve no true idea whether it was assault, verbal abuse from passenger to staff, or verbal abuse from staff to passenger that triggered this event. The delays and cancellations aren’t going to be sorted overnight so frustration will continue. Without a chain of evidence, of course the courts will do nothing. Shouting at someone isn’t a crime. By the time BTP get to the scene it will be too late to properly understand what has happened unless the there are reliable witnesses. So again, the little digital cams some staff carry (police, traffic wardens etc) are perhaps a way forward.

Given the conduct of some staff, I assume it will also be acceptable for passengers to wear such cameras?

(I suspect not)

What needs fixing is the service. Those signs saying "mistreating our staff will not be tolerated" are basically saying "our service is so bad that you will feel like mistreating our staff so you restrain yourself" - how about fixing the service first. When was the last time you saw a sign like that in a fancy restaurant, say?
 

Darandio

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When was the last time you saw a sign like that in a fancy restaurant, say?

I've seen them in buses, doctors surgeries, dentists, primary school, takeaways and one of our local Indian restaurants which isn't fancy but is very good nonetheless. They aren't all telling you their service is bad.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've seen them in buses

Same as trains.

doctors surgeries, dentists

Places where people are often in considerable pain and anguish. I also don't like them in those places; they show poor handling of the mental health of ill people who have often received very bad news. The NHS is clueless at mental health and it shows.

Alcohol can be an issue here, but that's when you need police to arrest for drunk and disorderly. (I think there need to be far more police and far more arrests for that - perhaps we need proper "drunk tanks"?)

primary school

Hmm, not sure what I think of this one.

takeaways and one of our local Indian restaurants

Potentially for reasons of intoxication. I didn't mention pubs on purpose as they are different. OK, train passengers can be drunk, but not even most of them are (except late evenings, but in that case wheel those signs out then).

They aren't all telling you their service is bad.

They are certainly (other than the latter) places that have considerable problems that could quite understandably lead to people being upset, and where those places generally handle that matter very poorly. The NHS is woeful at it in particular and the lack of prioritisation of mental health calls it out as one of the worst.

And at the moment, I can totally empathise with someone who is upset because Northern are inept at operating anything even approximating to a train service. Perhaps the senior management should be manning the barriers for an hour a day, then they might get a clue just how bad it is?
 
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There is no excuse for assault or abuse, it cannot be condoned. However, does it mean that all staff have to walk out? I am assuming that is what happened? All the public see are incompetent railway company management who seemingly cannot plan or execute any significant change successfully, staff that have contracts that do not represent reality e.g. Sunday not being a 'working' day and unions who 'seem' to take great pleasure in striking as much as possible due to spurious 'safety' issues which magically disappear when more money is offered. Looking in from the outside, there is no one who really comes out of this with any credit. Network Rail, TOCs, Unions, they are all rubbish and the public are the ones that suffer and the staff at the 'coalface' too, such as this incident. I appreciate that some of it is a 'perception' and everyone can probably point a finger at everyone else, but it really is a complete omni-shambles at the moment and no one seems to be able to do anything about it.

You’re everything that’s wrong with this country nowadays - summed up in one utterly facile post
 

Bletchleyite

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FWIW I would fully support rail staff on Northern, TPE and West Midlands Trains (those being the dross at the moment) were they to take industrial action in order to demand that a realistic timetable be implemented on all three of those TOCs such that it can be operated consistently with punctuality (within 5 mins) and reliability of above 95% with current staffing levels[1] and expected sickness rates. That is where it should sit on an ongoing and long-term basis once you take out what would previously have been considered void days due to e.g. severe weather.

[1] Once new staff come on line and units become available, additional services could be put into the timetable, of course, but only if they could be operated to that level of punctuality and reliability.
 

theking

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Why should staff have to put up with being shouted at and verbally abused.
Do platform staff come into offices and verbally abuse staff there no, just because they work for a toc doesn't mean they're fair game.

Also he had a 10 week old kid so what, doesn't make a difference that cretin who smashed the gateline women in the face had a kid.

Maybe instead of shouting at staff passengers should look for themselves instead of expecting to be spoon fed.
 

Bletchleyite

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Maybe instead of shouting at staff passengers should look for themselves instead of expecting to be spoon fed.

Why should passengers not be spoon-fed, as you put it? The service is a joke. You can't expect the layman to be faffing around with Realtime Trains to sort themselves out. They quite understandably ask a member of staff, and are quite understandably angry when they are fobbed off because the member of staff can't or won't help. This may not be the member of staff's fault - it may be the management's - but fundamentally if anyone can't understand why passengers on Northern get angry at the moment they really have got their head firmly in a bucket of sand.

By the way, provided they don't get personal or violent, an angry customer is an opportunity to any good member of customer service staff in any good business. They come in unhappy, they go out happy. That's what you want.

Northern is not a good business. It is one of the worst large businesses I have ever had the misfortune to encounter.
 

northernchris

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And at the moment, I can totally empathise with someone who is upset because Northern are inept at operating anything even approximating to a train service. Perhaps the senior management should be manning the barriers for an hour a day, then they might get a clue just how bad it is?

I was at Victoria a couple of Saturdays ago and David Brown was by the barriers providing assistance. This would have been around 1830-1900

I hope the staff involved in tonight's incident are OK. Does Victoria have any security guards on the platforms? Leeds gained them a few weeks ago, they seem to be contracted by Network Rail.
 

C J Snarzell

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Interestingly enough, I commented about last Friday's chaos in Victoria which was caused partly by a power failure at Salford Central.

There was quite clearly an unpleasant atmosphere in the whole station caused by the tension amongst frustrated passengers trying to get from A to B and station staff who clearly were running low on patience in a highly stressful environment.

Last Friday, I did actually witness an altercation close to one of the barriers between a female member of staff and a tall guy who looked like a student. The female was screaming at this bloke and warning him to back off and get out of her personal space. The bloke was actually stepping away from her with his arms raised slightly in a kind of 'okay - calm down' gesture. I then heard her tell her colleague to summon the police on his radio. A few minutes later I saw the BTP officers chatting to this same guy and he was happily explaining things to them and pointing to where he had been shouted at.

It's not my place to take sides or pass judgement on this because I honestly don't know what this guy had said to offend this Northern worker, but from reading this Twitter update today it does have very similar hallmarks to what I witnessed last week.

I do hope no one has actually been assaulted today because no one deserves to be punched, kicked, spat on or even verbally abused in their place of work but clearly Victoria is a somewhat troubled place at the moment and I do hope it improves for everyone's benefit soon.

CJ
 

Bletchleyite

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I hope the staff involved in tonight's incident are OK. Does Victoria have any security guards on the platforms? Leeds gained them a few weeks ago, they seem to be contracted by Network Rail.

That they are even needed shows just how bad things have got. (Euston seems to have gained them recently, I wonder if someone in Network Rail has a bee in their bonnet? At Euston they are useless and just get in the way, and are powerless to do anything about the "Euston scrum" as if you attempt to stand in the way of it you will get trampled).
 

SuperNova

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Let's not forget that railway staff shout at paying customers daily at Manchester Piccadilly P13/4.

Or it is called managing the platform. Paying customer or not, this is required sometimes. I've seen it with my own eyes at Pic, Vic, Leeds etc - people crowding the bottom of the stairs rather than moving along the platform, people not letting those off the train first. People standing too close to the edge. I could go on.

Front line staff haven't got time to politely talk to everyone in the crowd saying move down. Sometimes they must be assertive and loud.

And, if the hear say that I've got wind of is true, front-line staff don't make threats of a violent nature towards paying customers. No railway worker, whatever the disruption, should be subject to aggressive behaviour or abuse.
 

ajdunlop

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I think the only thing that would get the Government to pay attention would be if staff and passangers both downed tools and didn't go to work until urgent measures were taken to bring some reliability to services.

Things that might start to restore hope that things will improve:
Firstly stabilise things on TransPennine now by slowing down staff training on new trains in order to reduce cancellations to only those announced before the new timetable started. Passengers would rather know which trains were actually going to run and see gradual capacity increases rather than the complete breakdown of services we have at the minute.
At the same time approve Platform 15 and 16 at Piccadilly and rebuilding of Oxford Road as well as electrification to Stalybridge to start as soon as possible (get rid of any services terminating in Victoria apart from bay platforms).
Also for the long term combine Northern and TransPennine Express franchises and put them under the control of Transport for the North who can decide what model to use for running them in the future.
 

Bletchleyite

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Interestingly enough, I commented about last Friday's chaos in Victoria which was caused partly by a power failure at Salford Central.

There was quite clearly an unpleasant atmosphere in the whole station caused by the tension amongst frustrated passengers trying to get from A to B and station staff who clearly were running low on patience in a highly stressful environment.

It doesn't help that Victoria itself, since it gained the new Arena bridge and barriers, is just a nasty, nasty environment, one of the worst large stations I can think of. It's never been a nice station, but the barriers get right in the way in their current form.

I think it would actually be sensible at the moment to remove or permanently open the barriers and accept the resulting revenue loss. If the space was more open and people weren't being challenged about paying for a service that is barely worth half of what is being charged for it it would help a lot.

It might also be worth, having done that, putting in place an assistance office with safety glass (similar to that at Piccadilly) so staff are safe from physical assault if passengers get angry.
 

Antman

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You’re everything that’s wrong with this country nowadays - summed up in one utterly facile post
The only facile post I see is yours.

There seems to be a lot of conjecture as to what exactly happened but it appears to have been words rather than an assault.
 
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