Staff down tools at Manchester Victoria following assault 19/12/2019

[gazzaa2]

Commuters will never be happy (other than the odd one none of them want to be doing it), but they can be pragmatic about odd one-off major disruption if the basic service is decent - that is, punctual and they get a seat. LM by and large achieved that, and so they were not so much of a target for ongoing bile. Northern do not - not even close.

Yeah, that's the thing. People mostly accept things do go wrong sometimes as frustrating as it might be. Not when it's every week though, or even every day.

 

[ajdunlop]

I remember earlier in the year or last year when talking about Victoria's problems someone suggested that the City Rooms part of the Arena wasn't really very useful (especially after McDonalds left).
Could it be incorporated as part of the station? I have never been in there so am coming from a place of ignorance but wondered what people thought about this.
Or more drastically could it be removed to allow light down to the platforms and to allow the current over-bridge to be widened into a passenger waiting area with measures to encourage passenger to stay there until just before train departure.
It looks like the Arena itself only really covers the most westerly part of platforms 5 and 6 and that it is the City Rooms part is what causes it to be such an unpleasant place.

 

[Parham Wood]

Can I ask that, before making passive-aggressive replies like the above, that you re-read what I said which criticises the NHS for poor mental health provision (i.e. there should be staff present trained to deal properly with such situations) and does not criticise surgeries as they are?

I have to step in here Bletchleyite and say that there is a difference between any deficiencies in the mental health service provided by the NHS (which does need improving in general) and the abuse staff receive from patients in all front line departments. People with mental health issues are unstable and can flip at any time, some are inherently aggressive both physically and or verbally. NHS staff do have training how to recognise in advance signs that someone is turning aggressive and what to do for their own safety and to try to calm things down.

Where I worked in a mental health NHS organisation it was mandatory for all staff to attend training on this. It is like any workplace where staff meet the general public there is a chance that the odd person will become aggressive if things do not go as they would have liked. In the NHS people attending are sick in some way so this just adds to the stress of the situation and their sickness will make them behave in ways they might not have if they were well. Part of my work area included mental health walk in drug clinics, all receptions were behind safety glass for obvious reasons. Many mental health (and other) NHS staff get physically assaulted annually and verbally assaulted daily. Unfortunately in mental health wards it is part of the job however well trained staff are and however well patients are monitored to detect signs of aggressive behaviour brewing. All staff carry panic alarms which will bring help in seconds. I am in full admiration for the staff who put these assaults behind them and go back to work when they are fit.

That said there is no place for abusive or aggressive behaviour in any work place.

 

[Eccles1983]

Two female dispatchers were on duty.

Both were threatened with assault, specifically having their necks broken.

Rightly they walked away.

Let's not beat around the bush, some "customers" are vile, and this is in no way isolated. I've had to step in a few times when waiting for my next train to stop or convince some idiots that abusing the platform staff isn't going to end well.

 

[Llanigraham]

If someone was shouted out then it isn’t downplaying things to say, you know, they got shouted at. Or, at a stretch, verbally abused.

The common definition of assault is someone actually making physical contact. The tendency for unions to class someone being mean or rude or loud to a member of staff as an assault is an internal practice which doesn’t land with most people.

Incorrect.
I suggest you read post #99 for the correct legal definition.

 

[Aivilo]

Staff are well within there right to walk away from a volatile situation or what they deem to be volatile in any job not just the railways.

No ifs, buts or why's. If your concerned for your safety take yourself away from the problem.

 

[SuperNova]

But even if you chuck a billion quid or ten at it, electrify the entire network, double the train lengths, double the complement of drivers and guards, and build all the growth projects proposed and more, it's going to take 5-10 years to deliver it all - it's very much jam tomorrow.

We still need to solve the problem now. And the fix for that is a significant frequency cut with longer trains where not already maxed out and simplified diagramming and routes.

But that doesn't solve the issue. Platform lengths aren't long enough, ASDO is a botch job and brings many more problems, especially when retrofitting. I could go on... Ultimately this all lies at the feet of those in the last 30 years who never future proofed the railway.

 

[Llanigraham]

So the victims of this removal of labour / wildcat strike aren't allowed to know the cause of last nights problem? How many tens of thousands of people looking for an answer and they aren't to be trusted with it? Where's the conspiracy?

This was not a "wild cat strike" in any way, and to insinuate that is both incorrect and insulting.

 

[randyrippley]

Bugger off. Want someone to post a screenshot of the control logs and lose their job? You've been told the cause numerous times by numerous people, but you don't want to believe it, you want to believe your conspiracy theory that staff walked out because they couldn't be bothered any more. Just like any conspiracy theorist no amount of evidence will be enough to convince you otherwise, as all evidence contrary to your view is considered part of the conspiracy.

Byeee.

The simple fact is no evidence has been brought except for that one witness report in the MEN. Everything else has been unsubstantiated rumour and gossip.
As for conspiracy, Northern haven't exactly been free with the truth in the past when faced with crew. timetabling, and operational issues, why should this time be any different?
So if someone who really knows could actually make a definitive statement as to the sequence of events last night it would really help general understanding.

 

[Mathew S]

The simple fact is no evidence has been brought except for that one witness report in the MEN. Everything else has been unsubstantiated rumour and gossip.
As for conspiracy, Northern haven't exactly been free with the truth in the past when faced with crew. timetabling, and operational issues, why should this time be any different?
So if someone who really knows could actually make a definitive statement as to the sequence of events last night it would really help general understanding.

Journalists (well, the good ones at least, which includes the author of the MEN article in this instance) don't publish things without checking their facts first. It's up to you whether you decide to be satisfied with the explanations you have received, knowing that they come from someone who does have most if not all of the facts. If you're not, by all means contact Northern customer services and make a complaint, I'm sure you will get equally short shrift from them.

 

[randyrippley]

Journalists (well, the good ones at least, which includes the author of the MEN article in this instance) don't publish things without checking their facts first. It's up to you whether you decide to be satisfied with the explanations you have received, knowing that they come from someone who does have most if not all of the facts. If you're not, by all means contact Northern customer services and make a complaint, I'm sure you will get equally short shrift from them.

I presume you mean Spartacus as that "someone".........he's made three posts in this thread, two aimed at belittling me, one a claim that BTP refused to attend an incident of assault. Which seems strange as (1) he's claiming BTP declined to do their job, very unlikely and (2) the one alleged incident of assault (the guy with the baby) was later clarified to be just a verbal altercation,
Doesn't sound to me that he's as aware as he claims.
As for contacting Northern Customer Services, whats the point - they've had several years learning the art of obfuscation and denial.

 

[Spartacus]

I presume you mean Spartacus as that "someone".........he's made three posts in this thread, two aimed at belittling me, one a claim that BTP refused to attend an incident of assault. Which seems strange as (1) he's claiming BTP declined to do their job, very unlikely and (2) the one alleged incident of assault (the guy with the baby) was later clarified to be just a verbal altercation,
Doesn't sound to me that he's as aware as he claims.
As for contacting Northern Customer Services, whats the point - they've had several years learning the art of obfuscation and denial.

Yawn. Make that three.

If you have a good look you'll see there more than just me providing info.

If you take take you'll note that there's no suggestion that what's in the MEN is actually incorrect, just that it only presents the picture at one place at one moment and not the whole truth. I wouldn't trust a paper to be impartial on any matter.

 

[randyrippley]

Yawn. Make that three.

If you have a good look you'll see there more than just me providing info.

If you take take you'll note that there's no suggestion that what's in the MEN is actually incorrect, just that it only presents the picture at one place at one moment and not the whole truth. I wouldn't trust a paper to be impartial on any matter.

I see several people providing rumour, none providing fact
As for impartiality, I'd trust the paper more than I'd trust statements from the union or company staffers.
But are you now saying the incident reported in the MEN isn't the incident which caused the walkout? Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that doesn't solve the issue. Platform lengths aren't long enough, ASDO is a botch job and brings many more problems, especially when retrofitting. I could go on... Ultimately this all lies at the feet of those in the last 30 years who never future proofed the railway.

Not all trains in the North are maxed out. In particular there are still 2-car services.

There is no point whining about blame to people 20+ years ago. Whoever's fault it is it needs fixing now.

 

[high camera]

As an ex member of the emergency services I have had 1/2 a lifetime of verbal assaults directed towards me and my organisation by persons from all levels of society, rich and poor, old and young, of sound mind and mentally ill. It was my choice to work in an occupation that mixed with society, did I and my colleagues ever down tool, walk away and refuse to continue with the service ? No we didn't !. Railway workers you have put yourself in the frontline and occasionally you too will be the target of "Society", that is a fact of todays world.
If I were a staff member working at Victoria, my concern wouldn't be irate public, it would be the toxic atmosphere that the old diesel trains create, can I suggest you all google "diesel fumes effects on humans" Now that would give you reason to walk out !
Take care out there and a Happy XMAS

 

[RAPC]

I was stuck in travel chaos in Manchester again yesterday evening and ended up at Victoria, unaware of what had caused the delays on arrival. (It was described as being 'operational reasons')

So first things first, I completely support the staff in retreating from the front line as a result of passenger actions and I hope that those who caused this are dealt with appropriately. I did notice travel safe officers on the platforms and assumed it was due to the overcrowding, but now I understand why.

As others have mentioned, at Victoria in particular it appears to be a perfect storm at the moment. Christmas crowds have changed the passenger mix, with more families and party-goers (i.e. booze influenced) travelling, along with the regular commuter crowd. There have been issues with Piccadilly platform 13/14 services having a rough time on some evenings, which adds more volume over to Victoria and then there have been the many and frequent issues at Victoria itself.

Twice this week I've been delayed on my regular commute (to Leyland) by over 3 hours thanks to cancellations on the Castlefield corridor services. Northern control have been consistent in refusing to put on additional stops at the couple of stations not served on the remaining Preston services and passengers are sent over to Victoria. On Monday myself and other passengers were bounced from Oxford Road to Victoria to Oxford Road and back to Victoria based on service availability and staff feedback. Yesterday evening I was sent from Oxford Road to Victoria, despite Victoria not running trains. (Which was the situation when I was sent over). I've taken it in my stride this week, but I fully understand why some passengers find this extremely frustrating as Northern staff are receiving no support or direction from Northern control (according to my conversations with staff) and are effectively moving problems along, which I believe is in good faith.

At Victoria this week we've had blocked platforms, information being incorrect on the displays or in the case of yesterday evening, no displays and no announcements to replace these. With virtually all services delayed or cancelled yesterday evening, it meant that passengers had no clue what was going on and were typically going to where they were directed to and left to wait. Trains then arrived and nobody knew where they were going to (if anywhere) or in some cases arrived, passengers told to board only to discover the service was being cancelled due to a lack of staff. Despatchers were not receiving information and passengers were the ones telling them what was going on at times. For example I was waiting for the heavily delayed 19:05 to Preston which everyone was waiting for on Platform 5. A 319 came in on 6 minus a destination showing). I pointed it out to the staff on 5 who told me it wasn't for Blackpool. I asked them to double check as I had been tracking the inbound service. Fortunately they did this and it was indeed the Blackpool service. With no announcements, staff were having to shout up the platform to ask people to head to 6.

At platform 6 it was chaotic with a group of passengers waiting for a Stalybridge service blocking platform access to anything beyond the last set of doors on the 319. A member of staff did have a small loudspeaker and was trying to inform people that it was for Blackpool and not Stalybridge. For that they were receiving a lot of questions and grumbles as no information about the Stalybridge service could be provide. Unlike on Monday when the same heavily delayed service was set to run non-step to Preston, at least the service yesterday ran as planned all stations.

The past few months in particular has seen a real decline in services, with regular cancellations on both Castlefield and Victoria services. The issue is that when these services are cancelled, there is no flexibility or customer focus to help mitigate. Additional calls are never added and Northern control consider it perfectly acceptable to allow gaps of 3 hours without any additional calls or alternative transport. Staff have very little information on the ground and often make poor calls on advising passengers due to the lack of information. Victoria gets overcrowded on the platforms and the lack of passenger facilities make it a pretty dismal experience at the best of times, let alone during more extreme service issues like this week.

The lack of information, process and management support on the ground are creating an environment where staff being set up to fail and are being put in the line of fire, which increasingly is becoming volatile. Staff are being let down by Northern management and are taking on the brunt of passenger frustrations. I don't see the service challenges improving too quickly, so the staff will need the security support in the short term. It really shouldn't be this way.

 

[Llanigraham]

I presume you mean Spartacus as that "someone".........he's made three posts in this thread, two aimed at belittling me, one a claim that BTP refused to attend an incident of assault. Which seems strange as (1) he's claiming BTP declined to do their job, very unlikely and (2) the one alleged incident of assault (the guy with the baby) was later clarified to be just a verbal altercation,
Doesn't sound to me that he's as aware as he claims.
As for contacting Northern Customer Services, whats the point - they've had several years learning the art of obfuscation and denial.

And as has been proven in post #99 a verbal altercation can be classed as an assault.

 

[AlterEgo]

Incorrect.
I suggest you read post #99 for the correct legal definition.

I suggest you reread my post where I was clear about using the “common definition” instead of - as is tradition - worthlessly adding zero to the thread by pointing me to a post I’ve already read.

 

[156420]

I remember a few months into me starting on the railway, being threatened to have my “head smashed in with a golf club” weirdly specific but there you go!

I take it though the attitude from most on here is that I shouldn’t have reported that to BTP, because the person didn’t have a golf club on their person, so it was just an empty threat.

Thoughts @randyrippley ?

 

[Djgr]

Or it is called managing the platform. Paying customer or not, this is required sometimes. I've seen it with my own eyes at Pic, Vic, Leeds etc - people crowding the bottom of the stairs rather than moving along the platform, people not letting those off the train first. People standing too close to the edge. I could go on.

Front line staff haven't got time to politely talk to everyone in the crowd saying move down. Sometimes they must be assertive and loud.

And, if the hear say that I've got wind of is true, front-line staff don't make threats of a violent nature towards paying customers. No railway worker, whatever the disruption, should be subject to aggressive behaviour or abuse.

Should I make it crystal clear? You do NOT as a matter of routine shout at your customers.

 

[Eccles1983]

As an ex member of the emergency services I have had 1/2 a lifetime of verbal assaults directed towards me and my organisation by persons from all levels of society, rich and poor, old and young, of sound mind and mentally ill. It was my choice to work in an occupation that mixed with society, did I and my colleagues ever down tool, walk away and refuse to continue with the service ? No we didn't !. Railway workers you have put yourself in the frontline and occasionally you too will be the target of "Society", that is a fact of todays world.
If I were a staff member working at Victoria, my concern wouldn't be irate public, it would be the toxic atmosphere that the old diesel trains create, can I suggest you all google "diesel fumes effects on humans" Now that would give you reason to walk out !
Take care out there and a Happy XMAS

Really?

I know dozens of incidents where the ambulance service refused to go to areas without police protection due to verbal abuse.

Same for the fire service. They have markers placed on addresses because of verbal abuse received. So let's not pretend that all emergency service personnel stand fast in the face of abuse. It doesn't happen, and as a part of any risk assessment the option to withdraw is always explored.

And as for the incident in question - I know the people involved. I also know the station supervisor. Not rumour.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

With the wonder of hindsight, the 1992 rebuild was undoubtedly a bad idea.

The 1992 rebuild is an abomination. Hey, everybody hates Birmingham New Street because it is dark and fume filled, lets replicate it 20/30 years later in Manchester!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 1992 rebuild is an abomination. Hey, everybody hates Birmingham New Street because it is dark and fume filled, lets replicate it 20/30 years later in Manchester!

At least New St has more platforms.

 

[randyrippley]

I remember a few months into me starting on the railway, being threatened to have my “head smashed in with a golf club” weirdly specific but there you go!

I take it though the attitude from most on here is that I shouldn’t have reported that to BTP, because the person didn’t have a golf club on their person, so it was just an empty threat.

Thoughts @randyrippley ?

I don't think anyone is suggesting threats of violence should not be reported. However that doesn't seem to be what happened yesterday. If the statement that BTP declined to attend an alleged incident of violence is correct, it seems likely that they thought that report to be unfactual.

 

[Antman]

Two female dispatchers were on duty.

Both were threatened with assault, specifically having their necks broken.

Rightly they walked away.

Let's not beat around the bush, some "customers" are vile, and this is in no way isolated. I've had to step in a few times when waiting for my next train to stop or convince some idiots that abusing the platform staff isn't going to end well.

Do you know this for sure? Only I've seen nothing anywhere else about necks being broken.

 

[Mathew S]

I see several people providing rumour, none providing fact
As for impartiality, I'd trust the paper more than I'd trust statements from the union or company staffers.
But are you now saying the incident reported in the MEN isn't the incident which caused the walkout? Curiouser and curiouser.

Read the MEN report very, very carefully. There's a reason that they're saying, 'this is what someone has said happened on Twitter,' and not, 'this is what happened.' I've said before and I'll say again, never take what is written in a newspaper at face value. Everyone has an agenda, and is biased (and I include myself in that).

Should I make it crystal clear? You do NOT as a matter of routine shout at your customers.

I disagree. There are plenty of circumstances where shouting is entirely appropriate, especially in a risky environment such as an overcrowded platform where people aren't following the clearly posted instructions which are their to ensure their own safety, and that of others.

 

[randyrippley]

Two female dispatchers were on duty.

Both were threatened with assault, specifically having their necks broken.

Rightly they walked away.

Let's not beat around the bush, some "customers" are vile, and this is in no way isolated. I've had to step in a few times when waiting for my next train to stop or convince some idiots that abusing the platform staff isn't going to end well.

Thank you for this, its unfortunate your post took so long to appear.
Do you know what happened in the leadup to the threats?

 

[Antman]

Verbal abuse is assault, plain and simple.

If it's true about BTP 'declining' to respond to an incident of threatening behaviour against a staff member which, it seems, caused staff to feel unsafe, then the reason for that decision needs to be investigated. There may have been reasons why officers weren't able to immediately be there - e.g. dealing with another, more serious, incident. But, whatever the reason, if that's what happened then changes are needed to make sure it doesn't happen again.

There is no one size fits all rule because there are so many variables, what was said, what context was it said in, what did the alleged recipient of this verbal abuse do or say etc etc. BTP obviously have to prioritise according to their work load and somebody raising their voice to a member of staff (and according to some reports that's all it was) is unlikely to be treated as a priority.

 

[timothyw9]

Let's not forget that railway staff shout at paying customers daily at Manchester Piccadilly P13/4.

Are we talking about the people telling you to stand behind the red line or the dispatch staff telling you to use another door?

If the train has a signal and is being delayed by passengers all trying to use the same door when the train door/coach I am standing nearest has plenty of space for people to board, then I will shout at people as they're the reason the train is going to be delayed. Same goes if their is one passenger who is either getting in the way of the PTI or seems indecisive as to whether or not they are boarding.

 

[TheGarner]

Are we talking about the people telling you to stand behind the red line or the dispatch staff telling you to use another door?

If the train has a signal and is being delayed by passengers all trying to use the same door when the train door/coach I am standing nearest has plenty of space for people to board, then I will shout at people as they're the reason the train is going to be delayed. Same goes if their is one passenger who is either getting in the way of the PTI or seems indecisive as to whether or no they are boarding.

I think it's fair for staff to do that. If people aren't using their common sense then it makes sense for a staff member to make an announcement over the PA system or say in a loud clear voice to use other doors/move down/stand behind the yellow/red line. I'm not sure why people actually have an issue with that - Now if a staff member came up to a member of the public and shouting at them infront of their face then thats a different story altogether.