Staff down tools at Manchester Victoria following assault 19/12/2019

[6Gman]

Given the conduct of some staff, I assume it will also be acceptable for passengers to wear such cameras?

(I suspect not)

What needs fixing is the service. Those signs saying "mistreating our staff will not be tolerated" are basically saying "our service is so bad that you will feel like mistreating our staff so you restrain yourself" - how about fixing the service first. When was the last time you saw a sign like that in a fancy restaurant, say?

Saw one in my (very good) dental practice yesterday. I think it's probably pretty standard across many industries these days.

 

[yorksrob]

The pre-rebuild atation was a huge, sprawling, uncoordinated mess, no doubt more exposed to the weather in parts, dingy subways and probably lots of remote hidden away corners. Would be a personal safety nightmare.

I think the real problem was the 92-94 rebuild being sized right for passenger use at the time, but inadequate for Victoria's current usage. Thinks like a secondary footbridge would be useful now. It copes just about OK when the train service is moving, but doesn't take much for passengers to start backing up.

I don't doubt that the old station could have done with a tidy up.

But as well as having six through platforms, subways can be well lit, and the less cramped, dark and fume laden condition of the platforms would have helped to dissipate the "pressure cooker" environment that the current one has.

Certainly - though it was fine in 1992 on the background of a declining railway that people genuinely thought would be half closed by now, not one which would experience unprecedented growth as car use becomes increasingly deprecated.

Of course, that means the plan needs to change. The refurb put a posh roof on, but apart from that it didn't do anything significant to improve the operation of the station, and indeed in some ways (the barriers in their present position) made it much, much worse.

One wonders how much one can do seeing that it's fundamentally too small. I think there was an idea for a west facing bay platform near where exchange used to be, but new development may have precluded this.

The 1992 rebuild is an abomination. Hey, everybody hates Birmingham New Street because it is dark and fume filled, lets replicate it 20/30 years later in Manchester!

Indeed. Building dark, enclosed platforms on a diesel railway was never going to be particularly good for passengers, even at a time when there were fewer of them.

 

[Djgr]

AA

I think it's fair for staff to do that. If people aren't using their common sense then it makes sense for a staff member to make an announcement over the PA system or say in a loud clear voice to use other doors/move down/stand behind the yellow/red line. I'm not sure why people actually have an issue with that - Now if a staff member came up to a member of the public and shouting at them infront of their face then thats a different story altogether.

No mate. They shout obnoxiously when it is not insufficiently clear what customers should do. These are not football hooligans. These are respectable middle age ladies who have often paid an arm and leg to be spoken to like dirt. It is not the customers' fault that the rail industry has failed so badly.

 

[sprunt]

Given the main cause of cancellations is staff availability, interested to know why Network Rail and DfT are at fault for today?

Not Network Rail, but it's fair to say that DfT have contributed by their repeated failure to hold TOCs to account for failing to have sufficient staff, as evidenced by the same TOCs still not having sufficient staff years after the problem first became apparent.

There are plenty of circumstances where shouting is entirely appropriate, especially in a risky environment such as an overcrowded platform where people aren't following the clearly posted instructions which are their to ensure their own safety, and that of others.

The trouble is when shouting angrily is used as a first resort. Example: I used to commute into Moorgate on GN, and usually in the morning not everyone could get on the train at Highbury & Islington. There was one member of platform staff there who would start angrily haranguing the passengers to get behind the yellow line the instant that the doors closed, despite the obvious fact that getting away from the platform edge on a crowded platform in that circumstance is not something that can be accomplished instantaneously - the people who just failed to get on the train need to wait for the people behind them to step back, and so on. This man just started shouting("Come on, move back, the train can't go until you do."), which contributed needlessly to an unpleasant atmosphere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No mate. They shout obnoxiously when it is not insufficiently clear what customers should do. These are not football hooligans. These are respectable middle age ladies who have often paid an arm and leg to be spoken to like dirt. It is not the customers' fault that the rail industry has failed so badly.

I think you can speak with a raised voice politely and assertively, and they should be recruiting staff of sufficient quality to do this (this is how Police Officers generally speak if they need to be assertive). They clearly did not do this - some of them look like they were recruited directly from by that wall by Piccadilly Gardens where the local drug addicts hang out.

This is not a role for "rent-a-thugs".

 

[js1000]

Don't blame the passengers for being frustrated. Nor do I blame staff for making terse, flippant remarks. Rather than the unions moaning as usual or police expressing concern, I think the real solution would be for Northern, TPE, Network Rail, DfT and TfTN to sit down like adults and resolve the problems to do with the unworkable timetabling and staff diagramming. None of the above parties have proposed a solution to reduce tension and avoid putting pasaengers and staff in difficult, sometimes unsafe, situations. Shame on them as it's both the staff and passengers who suffer.

 

[mike57]

To add to my earlier post I have passed through Manchester Victoria twice with my wife in the last year.

The first time was in the summer, she is asthmatic and although not on regular medication does need an inhaler occasionally. I double checked she had one in her bag before we set off, she asked why and I explained about the fume laden environment. When we passed through she saw my point, it was late afternoon on a warm day and you could cut the air with a knife or so it seemed. We were only on the platform 10 mins and there was no I'll effects fortunately.

The second time was 3 weekends ago, and it was a shambles. She commented that she now knew what I moaned about after the second platform change. Departure boards failed as well. She was very unhappy, doesn't like crowds, so really her worst nightmare.

She said if she had been on her own she wouldn't have a clue. I knew what train we were looking for and was watching departures and arrivals, but an occasional traveller would be lost and possibly a bit scared. Creating this situation will lead to aggressive behaviour in some people, no not an excuse, but the environment doesn't help.

 

[Mathew S]

There is no one size fits all rule because there are so many variables, what was said, what context was it said in, what did the alleged recipient of this verbal abuse do or say etc etc. BTP obviously have to prioritise according to their work load and somebody raising their voice to a member of staff (and according to some reports that's all it was) is unlikely to be treated as a priority.

Absolutely. I can't help thinking, though, that if I was a member of staff, I'd value some reassurance from BTP that they will turn up when they are genuinely needed. Only once in my career have I found myself in genuine fear for my own safety (when I had to deal with someone who was both high on coke, and carrying a rather large kitchen knife). The speed of the police response in that instance was massively reassuring to me and a big part of the reason I went into work the next day. I'm not sure that I would feel the same if it had been me in this instance and BTP hadn't responded, whatever the reason.

For the record, the BTP officers & staff I've had the pleasure of meeting in Manchester are brilliant, and I have nothing but praise for them and what they do on the front line. As with so many things, there just needs to be more of them.

 

[wolfman]

You’re everything that’s wrong with this country nowadays - summed up in one utterly facile post

Agree

 

[muz379]

So the victims of this removal of labour / wildcat strike aren't allowed to know the cause of last nights problem? How many tens of thousands of people looking for an answer and they aren't to be trusted with it? Where's the conspiracy?

Any evidence that this was a wildcat strike ?

Don't blame the passengers for being frustrated. Nor do I blame staff for making terse, flippant remarks. Rather than the unions moaning as usual or police expressing concern, I think the real solution would be for Northern, TPE, Network Rail, DfT and TfTN to sit down like adults and resolve the problems to do with the unworkable timetabling and staff diagramming. None of the above parties have proposed a solution to reduce tension and avoid putting pasaengers and staff in difficult, sometimes unsafe, situations. Shame on them as it's both the staff and passengers who suffer.

Although you might wish to flippantly dismiss the union expressing concern about the fact that assaults on rail staff are increasing , they do have a point . Okay you could play semantics and say that what happened last night was not an assault , but you can bet your life on it that if someone threatened me with serious violence I wont be hanging around to find out if they are serious , threats can so easily lead to violence . And on a more practical note local reps will today be sitting down with managers and trying their best to make a case for measures to try and prevent a reoccurrence .

Precisely what one of the jobs of a trade union is , regardless of your views on them .

 

[Llama]

The problem is, that this is a recurrence. It happened six months ago too, but later at night (just before midnight).

 

[6Gman]

Although you might wish to flippantly dismiss the union expressing concern about the fact that assaults on rail staff are increasing , they do have a point . Okay you could play semantics and say that what happened last night was not an assault , but you can bet your life on it that if someone threatened me with serious violence I wont be hanging around to find out if they are serious , threats can so easily lead to violence . And on a more practical note local reps will today be sitting down with managers and trying their best to make a case for measures to try and prevent a reoccurrence .

Precisely what one of the jobs of a trade union is , regardless of your views on them .

This is on the spot.

It is very regrettable that hundreds, thousands of decent passengers were delayed and disrupted but there comes a point where the issue has to be addressed. And if it takes staff moving to a place of safety while awaiting police support so be it.

 

[gazzaa2]

This is on the spot.

It is very regrettable that hundreds, thousands of decent passengers were delayed and disrupted but there comes a point where the issue has to be addressed. And if it takes staff moving to a place of safety while awaiting police support so be it.

That's right but hundreds or thousands had already been delayed and disrupted before the incident (hence the kick off) and not for the first time this week. People are losing patience, staff and passengers.

 

[TheGarner]

AA


No mate. They shout obnoxiously when it is not insufficiently clear what customers should do. These are not football hooligans. These are respectable middle age ladies who have often paid an arm and leg to be spoken to like dirt. It is not the customers' fault that the rail industry has failed so badly.

I'm typically on Platform 13/14 around 4-5pm on weekdays and it seems pretty clear what people should be doing. So unless it's different at other times of the day or I'm missing the drama with what you are saying then whoknows. Yes, there is normally quite a few announcements by staff to use all of the carriages, move behind the red line, use the full length of the platform. But I have never heard them say it in a rude way. Or a way that I would consider unacceptable.

 

[Djgr]

I'm typically on Platform 13/14 around 4-5pm on weekdays and it seems pretty clear what people should be doing. So unless it's different at other times of the day or I'm missing the drama with what you are saying then whoknows. Yes, there is normally quite a few announcements by staff to use all of the carriages, move behind the red line, use the full length of the platform. But I have never heard them say it in a rude way. Or a way that I would consider unacceptable.

They obviously just didn't like me.

 

[muz379]

This is on the spot.

It is very regrettable that hundreds, thousands of decent passengers were delayed and disrupted but there comes a point where the issue has to be addressed. And if it takes staff moving to a place of safety while awaiting police support so be it.

Exactly , I dont think staff would take the decision to stop the job like that on safety grounds lightly .

That's right but hundreds or thousands had already been delayed and disrupted before the incident (hence the kick off) and not for the first time this week. People are losing patience, staff and passengers.

Make no mistake about it , most rail staff I know have sympathy with the conditions passengers are facing day in day out , we see it first hand . And for most , disappointing passengers on a daily basis is not something we enjoy .

But we are also entitled to work safely as well , if staff dispatching trains have to leave platforms and stop dispatching trains in order to feel safe , and them leaving the platforms leaves thousands of people disrupted then perhaps more needs to be done to guarantee their safety whilst working on the platform .

 

[Zooty]

I'm typically on Platform 13/14 around 4-5pm on weekdays and it seems pretty clear what people should be doing. So unless it's different at other times of the day or I'm missing the drama with what you are saying then whoknows. Yes, there is normally quite a few announcements by staff to use all of the carriages, move behind the red line, use the full length of the platform. But I have never heard them say it in a rude way. Or a way that I would consider unacceptable.

I have to agree. Up until recently I hadn't used Piccadilly since the red line arrived, but had read plenty of grumbles on here. For the last few months I've been commuting once or twice a week, and never once have I heard an unfriendly or aggressive red line shout. Yes there are lots of announcements to keep behind the line, and yes, the platform staff do raise their voices (over the noise of multiple diesel engines) at individuals who have strayed, but there's always been a "please"in the request.

Incidentally, I was on P14 during the disruption yesterday and the mood seemed one of resigned acceptance.

The red line thing is silly and doesn't work. They should just move the yellow line back a bit.

I disagree. I think it works to an acceptable degree, at least while I've been there. Keeping the waiting crowds behind the red line leaves the space between the lines clear for people to move along the platform without getting in the way of the dispatch process. It would be nice not to need it, but Piccadilly is what it is for now.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Victoria needs a BTP station on the concourse. There used to be one but I think it was only for a short while whilst Piccadilly was being refurbished. I worked in Victoria 13 years ago and it can get a bit rough at weekends -especially in the buffet bar, Cancelled trains and too much alcohol.We had the abuse too and our manager had got beaten up, BTP came an hour later as we were closing. We did what the platform staff did- Were closed.

 

[Wtloild]

Couple of months ago, I was at Man Vic at about 20:30 on a Saturday evening with a couple friends, one of whom was wheelchair-bound due to MS.
We politely asked the barrier staff if they could unlock the disabled toilets for him as he'd lost his radar key. Staff on the barrier knocked on the office door nearby for more senior staff member & explained situation. His grunted response was "well that's your problem isn't it" & returned to his office.
Junior staff then advised that best bet would be to go to the platform (5) & there would definitely be a disabled toilet on the train.
Getting to the platform involved using a very slow motorized trolley as the lifts were out of order (as they still are - which I can imagine in this case help didn't the mood of the invalid dad with small child).
When my mates train arrived, it was a pacer & he ended up travelling home to Blackburn sat in his own piss.

I can therefore fully believe that Vic staff may well have been rude and also provided inconvenient misleading info.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree. I think it works to an acceptable degree, at least while I've been there. Keeping the waiting crowds behind the red line leaves the space between the lines clear for people to move along the platform without getting in the way of the dispatch process.

It doesn't do that, because if you even walk in that space you will get barked at.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Couple of months ago, I was at Man Vic at about 20:30 on a Saturday evening with a couple friends, one of whom was wheelchair-bound due to MS.
We politely asked the barrier staff if they could unlock the disabled toilets for him as he'd lost his radar key. Staff on the barrier knocked on the office door nearby for more senior staff member & explained situation. His grunted response was "well that's your problem isn't it" & returned to his office.
Junior staff then advised that best bet would be to go to the platform (5) & there would definitely be a disabled toilet on the train.
Getting to the platform involved using a very slow motorized trolley as the lifts were out of order (as they still are - which I can imagine in this case help didn't the mood of the invalid dad with small child).
When my mates train arrived, it was a pacer & he ended up travelling home to Blackburn sat in his own piss.

That is utterly unacceptable and to me is a clear cut case of discrimination. He should take legal action over the matter to seek both to have them prosecuted for a breach and to seek damages, as well as going to the Press. There is no excuse for this kind of thing, and under no circumstances should it be tolerated.

 

[Camden]

Sounds like some should remember the offence of "misconduct in public office" doesn't just apply to those employed in the civil service, but actually applies to anyone who works in "public duty", and who seriously misbehaves.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/misconduct-public-office

Being deliberately subjected to such a degrading experience, as described above. No one should be treated like that. The effect not just humiliating but also quite probably profound.

 

[Llama]

That's truly awful. Please take it further.

 

[farleigh]

That is one of the most disgraceful stories I have read on here.

 

[Eccles1983]

Sounds like some should remember the offence of "misconduct in public office" doesn't just apply to those employed in the civil service, but actually applies to anyone who works in "public duty", and who seriously misbehaves.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/misconduct-public-office

Being deliberately subjected to such a degrading experience, as described above. No one should be treated like that. The effect not just humiliating but also quite probably profound.

Whilst I agree it's disgraceful behaviour it's absolutely not misconduct in a public office.

The railway is not a function provided by or for the goverment. So therefore a railway worker is not a holder of a public office. The public duty element applies to office holders. Otherwise anyone working with the public in any context could be held.

It's completely the wrong act in this context.

The protected characteristic of the person is much more relevant and certain legislation will apply.

 

[Mathew S]

Couple of months ago, I was at Man Vic at about 20:30 on a Saturday evening with a couple friends, one of whom was wheelchair-bound due to MS.
We politely asked the barrier staff if they could unlock the disabled toilets for him as he'd lost his radar key. Staff on the barrier knocked on the office door nearby for more senior staff member & explained situation. His grunted response was "well that's your problem isn't it" & returned to his office.
Junior staff then advised that best bet would be to go to the platform (5) & there would definitely be a disabled toilet on the train.
Getting to the platform involved using a very slow motorized trolley as the lifts were out of order (as they still are - which I can imagine in this case help didn't the mood of the invalid dad with small child).
When my mates train arrived, it was a pacer & he ended up travelling home to Blackburn sat in his own piss.

I can therefore fully believe that Vic staff may well have been rude and also provided inconvenient misleading info.

Please tell me you made a formal complaint about this? Because that is truly appalling.

 

[Wtloild]

Please tell me you made a formal complaint about this? Because that is truly appalling.

No, my friend asked me not to - he was pretty embarrassed about it and just wanted it dropped.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Sounds like some should remember the offence of "misconduct in public office" doesn't just apply to those employed in the civil service, but actually applies to anyone who works in "public duty", and who seriously misbehaves.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/misconduct-public-office

Being deliberately subjected to such a degrading experience, as described above. No one should be treated like that. The effect not just humiliating but also quite probably profound.

I'm not sure you'd be able to successfully argue a railway employee could be prosecuted in such a way which is a requirement of that method of prosecution. Whilst the list of people isn't exhaustive, no railway staff are described, nor anybody with a duty resembling those carried out by railway staff.

 

[Mathew S]

No, my friend asked me not to - he was pretty embarrassed about it and just wanted it dropped.

Understandable, and fair enough.

It's just a shame that whichever collosal prat at Northern thought that was okay isn't going to be held to account.

 

[RHolmes]

Victoria needs a BTP station on the concourse. There used to be one but I think it was only for a short while whilst Piccadilly was being refurbished. I worked in Victoria 13 years ago and it can get a bit rough at weekends -especially in the buffet bar, Cancelled trains and too much alcohol.We had the abuse too and our manager had got beaten up, BTP came an hour later as we were closing. We did what the platform staff did- Were closed.

That won’t happen as their base is pretty much the other side of the train tracks on ‘Scotland’ in the Green Quarter, less than a 5 minute walk/2 minute drive