Staff entering the cab while train is moving

[tehmarks]

I was sat earlier on a heavily-delayed class 800, on the jumpseats behind the drivers cab. When the trolley appeared, the staff member with the trolley asked me to move as I "could cause a distraction to the driver". I was sat in silence (and sitting there because I needed quiet), but fair enough.

As this conversation was happening, the other staff member with the trolley knocked on and subsequently entered the cab to see if the driver needed refreshments, and had a quick chat - while we were proceeding at linespeed.

This surprises me somewhat, given I've read recent discussions on here that suggest that, at some TOCs, the driver can't even contact the signaller while moving, and that staff aren't allowed in the cab at many TOCs for non-operational reasons.

Is this normal and common practice?

 

[66701GBRF]

I wouldn't call it a non-operational reason though.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Very common for conductors, trolley staff to knock on the drivers door and see if they want a cuppa etc, or on Avanti etc, for the driver to contact the staff and ask them to fetch one.

Normally when the train is stopped (trolley staff) but conductors are more likely to very quickly drop a tea or coffee in on the move, but choosing their moment.

Not strictly permitted on the move, but there is a degree of common sense applied, and most staff know when is/isn't appropriate. Even driver managers do this. If something happened to go wrong, you'd be a bit stuck, but I've never known an issue in all my years.

No idea what TOCs don't allow drivers to contact signallers on the move - it's been the normal practice at several TOCs I've been engaged with - from the NRN days, right through to GSMR.

 

[800001]

I was sat earlier on a heavily-delayed class 800, on the jumpseats behind the drivers cab. When the trolley appeared, the staff member with the trolley asked me to move as I "could cause a distraction to the driver". I was sat in silence (and sitting there because I needed quiet), but fair enough.

As this conversation was happening, the other staff member with the trolley knocked on and subsequently entered the cab to see if the driver needed refreshments, and had a quick chat - while we were proceeding at linespeed.

This surprises me somewhat, given I've read recent discussions on here that suggest that, at some TOCs, the driver can't even contact the signaller while moving, and that staff aren't allowed in the cab at many TOCs for non-operational reasons.

Is this normal and common practice?

There will be drivers all over the country every day getting a knock to see if they would like refreshments.

 

[tehmarks]

All good to know. I see no issue, it just raised my curiosity given the simultaneous conversation happening about me being a distraction and given previous readings here about how strict some operators policies are with regards to staff in the cab.

 

[Towers]

All good to know. I see no issue, it just raised my curiosity given the simultaneous conversation happening about me being a distraction and given previous readings here about how strict some operators policies are with regards to staff in the cab.

The cab on a Class 800 is enormous, sitting in the vestibule you’re about ten feet away and the other side of a pretty chunky door. I rather suspect the trolley staff just fancied a sit-down having reached the end of the train!

 

[ValleyLines142]

I was sat earlier on a heavily-delayed class 800, on the jumpseats behind the drivers cab.

Were you in Coach A or E? If the latter, I believe those seats are staff only!

 

[800001]

Were you in Coach A or E? If the latter, I believe those seats are staff only!

Staff only seats are in the area where passengers can not get to! Ie behind kitchen area

 

[ValleyLines142]

Staff only seats are in the area where passengers can not get to! Ie behind kitchen area

This is what I was thinking. Unless the OP is referring to the ones in Coach A?

 

[800001]

This is what I was thinking. Unless the OP is referring to the ones in Coach A?

Which 8Xx have seats in the vestibules?

 

[tehmarks]

Were you in Coach A or E? If the latter, I believe those seats are staff only!

I was in coach A, for my own sanity/trying to remove myself from any potential triggers of a full meltdown. It obviously wasn't a great issue because I didn't move and they were perfectly happy with me not moving in the end. It just felt unnecessarily antagonistic given the train was virtually full and delayed 2h30.

If the seats are staff-only, they should surely be signed as such?

 

[Scotrail84]

At least one operator I know its an absolute no no being up the front. Potentially out the door if caught, both driver and guard (or catering staff)

Was commonplace years ago for guards to sit up the front with the driver for blether. Not now though unfortunately.

 

[Towers]

I was in coach A, for my own sanity/trying to remove myself from any potential triggers of a full meltdown. It obviously wasn't a great issue because I didn't move and they were perfectly happy with me not moving in the end. It just felt unnecessarily antagonistic given the train was virtually full and delayed 2h30.

If the seats are staff-only, they should surely be signed as such?

Which TOC are we referring to, OP?

 

[mmh]

At least one operator I know its an absolute no no being up the front. Potentially out the door if caught, both driver and guard (or catering staff)

Which operator is that?

 

[dk1]

Yes it’s very normal and wonderful that catering offer the driver a cuppa. At one time most guards too popped up front to have a chat with the driver. Four eyes are better than two and all that.

 

[Scotrail84]

Which operator is that?

ScotRail.

 

[Geswedey]

Interesting that most freight trains in the US will have a Conductor riding with the Engineer as an extra pair of eyes and they will call and confirm Signal aspects as they approach them (Speed as opposed to route signalling probably make doing this eminently sensible), Drivers certainly on my old TOC are expected to call out the signals out loud to themselves.

So we have the two views extra person in cab good for safety and extra person in cab a distraction and potentially a safety risk. Discuss.

 

[mmh]

ScotRail.

If they're excessively draconian that's a huge shame, as every ScotRail person I've spoken to has been great.

 

[tehmarks]

So we have the two views extra person in cab good for safety and extra person in cab a distraction and potentially a safety risk. Discuss.

That's easy, I would say; if the person in the cab understands and is participating in their role as an extra person to increase safety, that can only be a good thing. If they're there "casually", that's probably a potential safety risk.

I say potential because at the end of the day it will depend largely on the people involved.

 

[chuff chuff]

If they're excessively draconian that's a huge shame, as every ScotRail person I've spoken to has been great.

This got jumped on many years ago after a couple of incidents.

 

[InkyScrolls]

No idea what TOCs don't allow drivers to contact signallers on the move - it's been the normal practice at several TOCs I've been engaged with - from the NRN days, right through to GSMR.

Northern doesn't, and I believe XC doesn't either - I'm not sure about other TOCs.

 

[Scotrail84]

If they're excessively draconian that's a huge shame, as every ScotRail person I've spoken to has been great.

Nearly all ScotRail staff members are great! Going up the front is strictly prohibited except in accordance with the rule book though.A few mishaps occurred which may or may not have involved non authorised person in the cab at the time.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

ScotRail.

Given I've seen this at least 5 or 6 times in the last few months alone, I'm not entirely convinced it's much different from any other TOC, in that the rule about people in the cabs exists with serious consequences, but on the whole, it's overlooked/not enforced, and staff aren't particularly fearful of it being enforced.

Perhaps it is depot dependent - as it seems very unlikely you'd ever know on some of their more rural / remote lines with a trolley.

 

[Scotrail84]

Given I've seen this at least 5 or 6 times in the last few months alone, I'm not entirely convinced it's much different from any other TOC, in that the rule about people in the cabs exists with serious consequences, but on the whole, it's overlooked/not enforced, and staff aren't particularly fearful of it being enforced.

Perhaps it is depot dependent - as it seems very unlikely you'd ever know on some of their more rural / remote lines with a trolley.

I'm not saying this isn't true, but if you referring to ScotRail as the 5 or 6 times in the last month then I will be very, very surprised because its well known that it could lead to dismissal if caught.

 

[danbarjon]

Which 8Xx have seats in the vestibules?

Lumo have jumpseats available to the public I've been offered them by staff many times

 

[800001]

Lumo have jumpseats available to the public I've been offered them by staff many times

Never knew that! Must be the only 8X fleet that does?

 

[danbarjon]

Never knew that! Must be the only 8X fleet that does?

Yeah it's the carriage with the wheelchair space (Coach A), I got offered them more recently when I gave up my seat for a woman and her kids, in my opinion they should be near every door as they are a great addition and quite comfortable.

 

[tehmarks]

Never knew that! Must be the only 8X fleet that does?

They're only in coaches A and E, ie behind the cabs. There's certainly no signage to suggest that they're staff-only or otherwise restricted in any way.

 

[Starmill]

Lumo's licence application specifically itemised those seats. There is no restriction on who can sit there, although mostly people would rather not sit there unless it's the only choice. In my opinion the ORR ought to have made it their criteria that tip-down seats can't be counted towards the minimum. However that's water under the bridge now.

 

[dk1]

Northern doesn't, and I believe XC doesn't either - I'm not sure about other TOCs.

No idea if my TOC does or doesn’t. I just do it anyway. Always have.