Staff entering the cab while train is moving

[trainspotter54]

A few years ago I was at the front behind the drivers cab so I could just get straight out and the doors and station as it’s closer
To exit instead of walking down a platform and got asked to move
into main cabin

 

[43066]

I was sat earlier on a heavily-delayed class 800, on the jumpseats behind the drivers cab. When the trolley appeared, the staff member with the trolley asked me to move as I "could cause a distraction to the driver". I was sat in silence (and sitting there because I needed quiet), but fair enough.

As this conversation was happening, the other staff member with the trolley knocked on and subsequently entered the cab to see if the driver needed refreshments, and had a quick chat - while we were proceeding at linespeed.

This surprises me somewhat, given I've read recent discussions on here that suggest that, at some TOCs, the driver can't even contact the signaller while moving, and that staff aren't allowed in the cab at many TOCs for non-operational reasons.

Is this normal and common practice?

Is there any possibility you’d been on your phone and overheard from the cab? Even if not it’s also possible that the staff just worry that people will start playing music from their phones etc. because it’s so commonplace.

No issue with someone knocking on the door and asking if the driver wants a coffee etc.

 

[Starmill]

It's pretty common for the guard to go into the driver's cab to ask them to stop at the next station if it's a request stop.

 

[josh-j]

To be honest I sometimes wonder how drivers of some of the older DMUs cope when passengers are being loud - whether that be just from lots of people or night time drunk people, shouting kids or anything else. I get the impression the cab doors are not particularly soundproof.

 

[dk1]

It's pretty common for the guard to go into the driver's cab to ask them to stop at the next station if it's a request stop.

We don’t have that anymore but I can ask the guard to help me examine the line whenever I want.

 

[InkyScrolls]

No idea if my TOC does or doesn’t. I just do it anyway. Always have.

You're not the only one!

 

[mmh]

It's pretty common for the guard to go into the driver's cab to ask them to stop at the next station if it's a request stop.

This is the best answer so far,
If a driver's spooked enough by a knock on a door and hearing a colleague that they lose control, I'm pretty sure I think they shouldn't be a driver.

 

[Towers]

This is the best answer so far,
If a driver's spooked enough by a knock on a door and hearing a colleague that they lose control, I'm pretty sure I think they shouldn't be a driver.

In some quarters there are buzzer codes utilised for request stops as entering the cab is not permitted for that, either. I must say I’m surprised to hear that some TOCs still apparently permit this sort of thing so casually, the liability in the event of a serious incident would be interesting.

 

[dk1]

You're not the only one!

Relieved to hear it mate.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

In some quarters there are buzzer codes utilised for request stops as entering the cab is not permitted for that, either. I must say I’m surprised to hear that some TOCs still apparently permit this sort of thing so casually, the liability in the event of a serious incident would be interesting.

In my experience, using buzzer codes for request stops can be problematic, especially if the request stop has a starting signal or one on the approach. Guard gives 2 on the bell (don't stop) and driver goes into autopilot and gives 2 back, and sails through the signal. Driver is contending with observing signals, observing hand signals from passengers who wish to alight, and now the guard buzzing. Better just to knock on the door and hand a slip of paper with them written down, but obviously depends on the route.

 

[WAB]

I have pulled up guards when I’ve been off duty when they’ve frequently been in and out of the cab during a run of single yellows. When there’s not so much need for focus, it’s not something I’m too bothered about.

 

[bluesfromagun]

Given I've seen this at least 5 or 6 times in the last few months alone, I'm not entirely convinced it's much different from any other TOC, in that the rule about people in the cabs exists with serious consequences, but on the whole, it's overlooked/not enforced, and staff aren't particularly fearful of it being enforced.

Perhaps it is depot dependent - as it seems very unlikely you'd ever know on some of their more rural / remote lines with a trolley.

It's forbidden in the rulebook for all TOCs. The difference seems to be that some overlook it and others don't. ScotRail, as previously stated, are just very firm on it.
If a trolley steward chaps the door, and I answer it, then later on the same journey I'm involved in any kind of incident - they WILL review the CCTV, and both the kind-hearted steward and myself WILL get done for it. Even though it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the later incident.
Phones, people in cabs - there's no wiggle room for that. It's obviously not always been quite as drastic as it is these days.
You still get a cuppa though, even in an HST. The good ones ask you where you want it and deliver it at a station of your choosing...just never on the move.

To be honest I sometimes wonder how drivers of some of the older DMUs cope when passengers are being loud - whether that be just from lots of people or night time drunk people, shouting kids or anything else. I get the impression the cab doors are not particularly soundproof.

You'd be right! 158s are horrific, may as well not have a door. You can smell the alcohol and kebabs on late trains

 

[chuff chuff]

You still get a cuppa though, even in an HST. The good ones ask you where you want it and deliver it at a station of your choosing...just never on the move.

Lol I would like to see that.
As has been said scotrail are very firm in no one in the other than authorised duties,like everywhere else it used to be pretty much ignored guards coming in for a blether trolley coming in with your cuppy.But after several incidents whilst unauthorised staff members in the cab it was clamped down on.

 

[LCC106]

Although strictly speaking you should only enter a cab in accordance with your duties, it could be argued that a driver may need a drink to stop flagging or help with concentration especially on a long journey I don’t see an issue if the person entering the cab can hear the AWS pings through the door so knows they’re running on greens. A bit different if they can hear the horns indicating yellow or red signals.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Cab passes, driver experience and competencies all limit cab access at my TOC, that being said, even with correct passes and driver being at the experience level to be accompanied, it can only be done in certain situations and if your role permits it

Below extract from rulebook G1. I don’t think you’d be offered the same refreshment mentioned in the meeting with your managers following a report or incident!

 

[Horizon22]

This surprises me somewhat, given I've read recent discussions on here that suggest that, at some TOCs, the driver can't even contact the signaller while moving

It's rare for a driver to do so but in certain times they might need to (e.g. suspected wrong routing) and drivers speak to signallers and even controllers on the move (again normally at a stand but not neccessarily) via GSM-R.

 

[LCC106]

It's rare for a driver to do so but in certain times they might need to (e.g. suspected wrong routing) and drivers speak to signallers and even controllers on the move (again normally at a stand but not neccessarily) via GSM-R.

Maintenance on the move too. Only ever on greens for me and if I’m talking to them then encounter levels I always tell them and ring back later. A former TOC didn’t allow GSMR calls on the move, current one does.

 

[Lockwood]

Cab passes, driver experience and competencies all limit cab access at my TOC, that being said, even with correct passes and driver being at the experience level to be accompanied, it can only be done in certain situations and if your role permits it

Below extract from rulebook G1. I don’t think you’d be offered the same refreshment mentioned in the meeting with your managers following a report or incident!

Genuine question from the uninformed...

Is there a difference acknowledged between "travelling" - using the cab as a static location for transit between two stations, and "travelling" - entering the cab briefly while in execution of duties while the train is in motion?

I suppose effectively the difference being intent to travel vs the movement being incidental to your primary task

 

[35B]

Interesting that most freight trains in the US will have a Conductor riding with the Engineer as an extra pair of eyes and they will call and confirm Signal aspects as they approach them (Speed as opposed to route signalling probably make doing this eminently sensible), Drivers certainly on my old TOC are expected to call out the signals out loud to themselves.

So we have the two views extra person in cab good for safety and extra person in cab a distraction and potentially a safety risk. Discuss.

Cowden…

 

[scrapy]

In my experience, using buzzer codes for request stops can be problematic, especially if the request stop has a starting signal or one on the approach. Guard gives 2 on the bell (don't stop) and driver goes into autopilot and gives 2 back, and sails through the signal. Driver is contending with observing signals, observing hand signals from passengers who wish to alight, and now the guard buzzing. Better just to knock on the door and hand a slip of paper with them written down, but obviously depends on the route.

Some TOCs have changed procedures to alleviate this, so on approach to request stop if the driver observes the platform and any platform signal to be clear, they give 2 to the guard, who gives 2 back if there are no passengers wanting to get off. Otherwise they stop.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

To be honest I sometimes wonder how drivers of some of the older DMUs cope when passengers are being loud - whether that be just from lots of people or night time drunk people, shouting kids or anything else. I get the impression the cab doors are not particularly soundproof.

It’s downright annoying. Especially if they’re deciding to play their s**t music to everyone.

 

[chuff chuff]

It’s downright annoying. Especially if they’re deciding to play their s**t music to everyone.

One of the pleasures of being back in a locomotive.... hst in my case.

 

[Huntergreed]

Quite often I’ll be sitting in coach A on Avanti and I’ll see the TM taking a cuppa through to the cab. They often stay for a good 10-15 minutes.

 

[dk1]

It’s downright annoying. Especially if they’re deciding to play their s**t music to everyone.

Babies can be as bad. Shame we can't have a 'no crying' area behind each cab

 

[Deepgreen]

There will be drivers all over the country every day getting a knock to see if they would like refreshments.

Indeed, but to speak to a silent, seated passenger and ask them to move owing to a potential driver distraction will have come across as very contradictory when then going on to do what the OP said happened.

 

[The exile]

Some TOCs have changed procedures to alleviate this, so on approach to request stop if the driver observes the platform and any platform signal to be clear, they give 2 to the guard, who gives 2 back if there are no passengers wanting to get off. Otherwise they stop.

How does that work if you’ve got a succession of request stops and the guard’s out in the passenger saloon checking the destinations of passengers who got on at the previous one?

 

[driver9000]

How does that work if you’ve got a succession of request stops and the guard’s out in the passenger saloon checking the destinations of passengers who got on at the previous one?

If the Guard doesn't bell back the Driver should assume passengers want to get off and stop at the station.

 

[Tractor2018]

It's rare for a driver to do so but in certain times they might need to (e.g. suspected wrong routing) and drivers speak to signallers and even controllers on the move (again normally at a stand but not neccessarily) via GSM-R.

This.

Easiest explanation for anybody not in the industry or role - drivers are savvy enough to risk assess each circumstance on its own merits.......or otherwise. And are trusted to do so.

Are you on greens, yellows, approaching a red. Are you under a caution, on a poor railhead approaching a station. Etc, etc, etc.

These things and similar will contribute to a driver answering a gsm-r call or not, a guards call being answered, a colleague on the 2nd mans side speaking, and on and on and on.

If a driver needs to focus for any reason, he's not speaking to anyone. And if a gsm-r call goes unanswered, the person making the call knows why.

 

[Deepgreen]

This is the best answer so far,
If a driver's spooked enough by a knock on a door and hearing a colleague that they lose control, I'm pretty sure I think they shouldn't be a driver.

Indeed and, equally, a passenger sitting silently outside the cab should not be regarded as a potential safety hazard... If so, there are very many unit types where several existing seats would have to be taken out of use!

 

[danbarjon]

I remember more recently a guard entering the drivers cab so he could put some passengers luggage in the driver's cab so a wheelchair user could line up properly to get off, it was a Northern 156 and the luggage was blocking the doors so the guard just opened the drivers cab let the driver know he was sticking some suitcases in and all was fine. It was actually quite a good solution to the problem.