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Staff member stabbed seven times at Bromley South

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Horizon22

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Yep but there's a whole culture now of not paying and doing as you want on SE metro as it's so minimally staffed. When there's a very rare occasion someone is challenged they kick off as a culture has become embedded. It's a symptom of the unsafe railway that's developed through inadequate staffing and policing.


I'm not sure it's even medium term (2-5 years). Wasn't it the case that within a month or two counted passenger numbers at Abbey Wood near doubled after allday staffing and barrier lines were introduced. That's a couple of million journeys per annum.

But yes I agree that still no incentive for south eastern to do it as they never had more than a few months to run for half a decade.

I don’t know about monthly but yes the the ORR figures (yearly) show a big rise. That’s the benefit of a) a brand new station to allow b) more barriers that are c) permanently staffed. I’m not saying that isn’t right but it doesn’t always come cheap.

SE could have more Revenue Protection / Rail Enforcement officers (I note they were recently recruiting for the latter) to allow a better “roaming” presence although it was one of these staff members who was sadly the victim here.

I was somewhat stunned to hear about this. Bromley is generally a non-violent area and one of my regular haunts. Of course, just because most of the locals are non-violent, it doesn't mean that people who think it's acceptable to carry a knife won't travel through.

I understand that revenue enforcement is one of the less pleasant areas of the railway, but at the same time, staff who work on the gate lines and front-line revenue checks should not have to work in fear of being sworn at, spat on, pushed, punched, kicked or in this case, stabbed. They're here to do a job that, in an ideal world, shouldn't need to be done because people should pay for what they use.
As you say Bromley is generally a fairly nice (if not a bit dull) part of suburban London. However you do certainly get all sorts travelling through, perhaps because it’s the last stop on mainline services and being the biggest nearby centre for stopping services (some of which terminate) from unbarried stations.

Sadly I think this an indictment on wider society and a lack of respect for people doing customer-facing roles. I saw for instance paramedics to be trialling wearing body cams due to an increase in assaults. Many revenue staff already wear these and even then that wasn’t a deterrent here. I will at least credit the RMT with standing up for the safety of their members here to try and achieve the very best, even if their their rhetoric is typically gung-ho.
 
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rob.rjt

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Given that the BTP have to deal with all railway related crime, crime that isn't necessarily at or near a station, the quoted 3000 officers does not seem very much...particularly as 25% of that number probably aren't on shift due to rest days, training, sickness and annual leave.

3000 is near enough the same as Avon and Somerset - which also happens to be one of the few forces to show a map of all their police stations at https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/contact/police-stations/. For the same area, BTP has officers based at Bristol and Bath (per https://www.btp.police.uk/lt/local-teams/south-west-england/avon-somerset/ using Wells as a location to search for police stations).

Even if both forces have half their officers on shift at once, Avon and Somerset are much more likely to be able to respond to an incident at, say Castle Cary station than BTP will be.

This problem is due to the nature of the network - it is easy to place points to cover a plane as territorial forces do, much less easy to have points to respond to places on a network as BTP need to.
 

XAM2175

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It's only three isn't it? MoD, BTP and CNC?
Mersey tunnels police, Port of Liverpool police...
Used to be the Royal Parks Police as well but they became part of the Met in 2004.
For the sake of completeness - the term "special police force" has a distinct meaning that's changed over time. By the present meaning there are only three; the BTP, the Ministry of Defence Police, and the Civil Nuclear Constabulary.

There are a number of other police-style services with very specific jurisdictions that are empowered by various pieces of legislation to employ and swear constables outside the territorial and special forces; these include ports police forces in Belfast, Bristol, Felixtowe, Portland, Falmouth, Dover, Liverpool, Tilbury, and Tees and Hartlepool; cathedral constables in Canterbury, Chester, Liverpool, and York; the Mersey Tunnels Police; the Belfast International Airport Constabulary, and two or three others.

This problem is due to the nature of the network - it is easy to place points to cover a plane as territorial forces do, much less easy to have points to respond to places on a network as BTP need to.
It's for this reason that I can see a valid argument for policing the railways (and indeed all public transport) to be a special competency within the territorial forces, but any further discussion would be better conducted in a new topic.
 

Deepgreen

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I think the RMT statement strayed when it claimed that they knew that this VERY thing would happen - semantics maybe, but it reads as if they knew specifically that a seven-times stabbing and a missing tooth would certainly happen, rather than simply more generalised injuries. They really don't help themselves with press stuff like this, and I am a supporter - imagine what their enemies can make of their poor written discipline. A horrible incident, and fortunate that the perpetrator was caught.
 

Railcar

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There seems to be little publicity when villains are caught and sentenced for committing offences on the railways. On the TV there are numerous programmes about cops in fast cars catching villains and the occasional programme about RPIs. The online version of my local paper periodically has a 'Rogues Gallery'.

A 'Rogues Gallery' of railway offenders would be a useful addition to railway stations. A notice board on the wall of the ticket hall placed on the 'public' side of the gateline. It would have four purposes; to deter offenders from further offending; to deter potential offenders; to reassure railway staff that offenders do actually get convicted and punished; to inform the public that offenders do actually get convicted and punished.
 

Roast Veg

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Some platform dispatchers have them, I know the staff at St Albans City for Thameslink do use them.
NR staff at Birmingham New Street too. Cameras certainly wouldn't hurt in instances like this.
 

the sniper

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BTP have an annual budget of £300 million & 3,000 officers.
That is £100,000 per officer. (Including overheads)

A huge sum bearing in mind staff & the public rarely see them, except for occasional PR shows at main line stations.

Even that artificially high number, given that you haven't accounted for the budget also paying for over 200 PCSO, 250+ Special Constables and 1500 Police Staff, is pretty good value when you take into account it includes the costs of wages and overtime, ongoing training, specialist training, vehicle fleet and fuelling costs, uniform and equipment and dogs, ect, which would have to be paid even if they were in the Locals.

Reading through the 53 posts an idea has occurred to me that I never had before.

At post 39 Horizon22 said an arrest ties up BTP officers for ages.
BT police are said to be railway specialists. They do not need to process an arrest. They could be on their way using their specialist skills(if they exist) on other calls.

They should immediately hand over the suspects to the local police who should have the responsibility for processing & detaining if necessary.
BTP travel 2 in a car so the second officer can give all the details to the local officers as they go to another railway job.

If forum member think this silly then I still think BTP should be abolished.
What are the specialist skills? Other professionals, RAIB, do accident investigation. BTP often get in the way.
Local non BTP police really know their beat including the railway stations. We do not need, or have a Tyne & Wear Metro force, or a bus or taxi police force.

The Locals will love that... While houses are getting burgled your Local police will be tied up getting a handover package so they can interview someone getting done for trespass on the railway or resourcing a constant watch for someone brought in under S136 of the Mental Health Act.

And if the alternative is to abolish BTP, then what priority do you think most railway jobs will receive by the Locals, who probably won't see the need to go chasing ghosts/trespassers when they've got far more pressing incidents stacking up for attendance. Some of the jobs BTP CID put effort into probably wouldn't get looked at at all by the Locals. Then you've got football escorts, cable theft teams, tracking nationwide travelling graffiti 'artists', ect.

"BTP often get in the way"? What experience are you speaking from? If you're in a position to say that, than surely you're aware of the many, many incidents of Locals getting into all sorts of bother on the railway. Locals 'knowing their beat' in relation to the local railway stations often seems to mean they know where people can go to no longer be their problem as they disappear off their patch or force area!

And BTP response time doesn't seem to have been an issue in this case anyway... That's not to say there aren't issues with the way the railway is policed. But consider this, in the mid 1950s there were just over 3000 BT(C)P Officers, a minority admittedly covering docks and canals, plus just over 100 in the London Transport Police. In the early 50s BT(C)P were the second largest Force in the country, only second to the Met. Now, well, pre-Covid, passenger numbers were double what they were in the mid 1950s and the crime landscape is very different, yet there are now just under 3000 PCs in BTP... And BTP is now more heavily skewed towards London due to TfL funding than it was in the 50s.
 

OldNick

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A 'Rogues Gallery' of railway offenders would be a useful addition to railway stations. A notice board on the wall of the ticket hall placed on the 'public' side of the gateline. It would have four purposes; to deter offenders from further offending; to deter potential offenders; to reassure railway staff that offenders do actually get convicted and punished; to inform the public that offenders do actually get convicted and punished.
I think most TOCs / stations would want to promote how safe their service is rather than how many wrong 'uns get convicted.

As for a deterrent, it'd more likely be a badge of honour to some, like ASBOs were. If they don't mind the consequences of stabbing someone they probably aren't exactly put off by their face appearing in media or a 'rogues gallery'.
 

357

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I used to work at a station within the London travelcard zones, we had huge problems with crime.

When we needed to call the police, there were many times that I would openly say on the phone that if the operator doesn't send Met police then not to bother and I'll call BTP directly afterwards to report the crime.

BTPs response time was two hours on a good day.

The officers are fantastic, but the force is hugely underfunded.
 

24Grange

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Minimal staffing ? I appreciate they have a lot of railway to cover and seem to be not a deterrent, but only to turn up and give you a crime number afterwards. I wanted to report my laptop had been stolen from a Thameslink service at St Pan. No BTP at St Pan or Kings Cross that I could find. Rail staff gave me number. I rang and they rang me back about a week later, just to give me a crime number. They could not do anything about it as CCTV on the carriage I was in didn't work! Its strange that the only time you see them is during a " sweep" for tickets at a barrier. Hope the staff member recovers fully.
 

Railwaysceptic

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I was somewhat stunned to hear about this. Bromley is generally a non-violent area and one of my regular haunts. Of course, just because most of the locals are non-violent, it doesn't mean that people who think it's acceptable to carry a knife won't travel through.
It is for this reason that many people who live in Chelsea do not want a local station if Crossrail 2 ever goes ahead.
 
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It is for this reason that many people who live in Chelsea do not want a local station if Crossrail 2 ever goes ahead.
That's what they claim. Although I'd argue in this case that a Range Rover Discovery with a lone occupant texting behind the wheel is more dangerous to Chelsea residents than the threat of a gated station that takes traffic off the roads.

I have nothing against those who do drive Range Rovers, assuming they own a farm or live in the countryside(!)
 

och aye

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I cannot imagine the fear and physical pain this poor person must have gone through. Hopefully they will have a speedy recovery.

As a side note, should ToCs make bodycams for staff compulsory? I'm not suggesting for one moment that the presence of a bodycam would have deterred the offender from committing this act of violence against the worker, but at the very least it might help record evidence of the individual. - I hope this isn't too off-topic or innappropriate question to ask in this thread.
 

Railwaysceptic

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That's what they claim. Although I'd argue in this case that a Range Rover Discovery with a lone occupant texting behind the wheel is more dangerous to Chelsea residents than the threat of a gated station that takes traffic off the roads.
A strange and eccentric response. I've never heard of a Range Rover stabbing anyone. I imagine that most residents of Chelsea also disapprove of anyone texting while driving a car, regardless of the make.
 

ScotGG

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I don’t know about monthly but yes the the ORR figures (yearly) show a big rise. That’s the benefit of a) a brand new station to allow b) more barriers that are c) permanently staffed. I’m not saying that isn’t right but it doesn’t always come cheap.

SE could have more Revenue Protection / Rail Enforcement officers (I note they were recently recruiting for the latter) to allow a better “roaming” presence although it was one of these staff members who was sadly the victim here.


As you say Bromley is generally a fairly nice (if not a bit dull) part of suburban London. However you do certainly get all sorts travelling through, perhaps because it’s the last stop on mainline services and being the biggest nearby centre for stopping services (some of which terminate) from unbarried stations.

Sadly I think this an indictment on wider society and a lack of respect for people doing customer-facing roles. I saw for instance paramedics to be trialling wearing body cams due to an increase in assaults. Many revenue staff already wear these and even then that wasn’t a deterrent here. I will at least credit the RMT with standing up for the safety of their members here to try and achieve the very best, even if their their rhetoric is typically gung-ho.

Abbey Wood's old station could easily have been barriered full time. It wasn't the new station that permitted it. The former station had a gate line that was wide enough but they left it open apart from the peaks. On the other platform there was a side gate rendering the gateline pretty pointless. There was space for barriers there by building out as TfL did at London Overground stations upon taking over (and SE have at Sidcup - quite a rare thing on SE).

Given the sudden increase in passengers with tickets once a staffed gateline, it's pretty mad it wasn't done 20 years before. But alas DfT are/were useless. Now it has as TfL in control, leaving many other stations on SE in need of the same. It wouldn't be prohibitively expensive at Plumstead, Belvedere, Charlton etc. Plumstead is due a rebuild soon - but no effort going in for a gateline. Kidbrooke just rebuilt without a gateline. Deptford rebuilt in recent years without one.
 

skyhigh

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Reading through the 53 posts an idea has occurred to me that I never had before.

At post 39 Horizon22 said an arrest ties up BTP officers for ages.
BT police are said to be railway specialists. They do not need to process an arrest. They could be on their way using their specialist skills(if they exist) on other calls.

They should immediately hand over the suspects to the local police who should have the responsibility for processing & detaining if necessary.
BTP travel 2 in a car so the second officer can give all the details to the local officers as they go to another railway job.

If forum member think this silly then I still think BTP should be abolished.
What are the specialist skills? Other professionals, RAIB, do accident investigation. BTP often get in the way.
Local non BTP police really know their beat including the railway stations. We do not need, or have a Tyne & Wear Metro force, or a bus or taxi police force.
Very many inaccuracies in that post. For example, the arresting officer needs to provide a statement for the file. Do they hand the suspect straight over and go off on patrol without providing that? Processing the suspect in custody takes relatively little time, completing all the paperwork is the biggest factor. Given local police forces are overstretched, is it really a good idea to pass that load onto them?

BTP don't always travel 2 in a car. Single officers are used where possible. Now, say there were 2 officers - 1 goes to custody to give details to local police, the other drives off to an incident miles away. What happens to the other officer, do they get the bus back to the station?

Specialist skills? How about personal track safety? Byelaws? Body recovery? Common trespass access points? Some of the people I've worked with have decades of experience with regards to common trespass locations and access points and can go straight to where it's most likely the person might be on the line. Local police sometimes can't even find the railway. You might think all that isn't important, but given the number of log entries I've seen where local police have (while well meaning) done something that could have cost them their lives... such as looking in tunnels for people without telling the signaller where they are...

BTP have many issues, but the vast majority of officers are doing their best in difficult circumstances. Giving all those responsibilities to other forces will probably just make things worse, in my opinion.

Minimal staffing ? I appreciate they have a lot of railway to cover and seem to be not a deterrent, but only to turn up and give you a crime number afterwards. I wanted to report my laptop had been stolen from a Thameslink service at St Pan. No BTP at St Pan or Kings Cross that I could find. Rail staff gave me number. I rang and they rang me back about a week later, just to give me a crime number. They could not do anything about it as CCTV on the carriage I was in didn't work! Its strange that the only time you see them is during a " sweep" for tickets at a barrier. Hope the staff member recovers fully.
If someone had taken your laptop and gone, there's little anyone could do to be honest. CCTV is the responsibility of the train operator, not the BTP. They took the time to work out which service you were on and request footage, and if CCTV was available they could have done something about it. By the time you realised your laptop was gone, they'd have been long gone even if there was someone right on the concourse. They also don't check tickets - they work with the TOC to provide support at barrier lines where possible as they find that people who don't bother with tickets are more likely to be of interest to them for other reasons as well...

Antisocial behaviour is a major issue at stations around the country, and something needs to be done about it.
 
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A strange and eccentric response. I've never heard of a Range Rover stabbing anyone. I imagine that most residents of Chelsea also disapprove of anyone texting while driving a car, regardless of the make.
They don't need to stab anyone. A 2.5 ton Range Rover is perfectly capable of being just as dangerous to pedestrians and other road users. My point was that not building a stop for Crossrail in Chelsea isn't going to be safer on balance versus taking traffic off of the road. That might have been overly subtle on my part.

Back on the topic of stabbings and other violence against rail staff, what else can be done to mitigate the risks? Random checkpoints with metal detectors? This would definitely be a bit draconian, but if people are routinely carrying weapons or "going equipped with intent to cause harm with an offensive weapon", they need to be deterred - it needs to be not worth it for them to carry a knife.
 

matt_world2004

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They don't need to stab anyone. A 2.5 ton Range Rover is perfectly capable of being just as dangerous to pedestrians and other road users. My point was that not building a stop for Crossrail in Chelsea isn't going to be safer on balance versus taking traffic off of the road. That might have been overly subtle on my part.

Back on the topic of stabbings and other violence against rail staff, what else can be done to mitigate the risks? Random checkpoints with metal detectors? This would definitely be a bit draconian, but if people are routinely carrying weapons or "going equipped with intent to cause harm with an offensive weapon", they need to be deterred - it needs to be not worth it for them to carry a knife.
There have been checkpoint s with metal detectors I've been through one at Uxbridge and Stratford
 

Randomer

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And BTP response time doesn't seem to have been an issue in this case anyway... That's not to say there aren't issues with the way the railway is policed. But consider this, in the mid 1950s there were just over 3000 BT(C)P Officers, a minority admittedly covering docks and canals, plus just over 100 in the London Transport Police. In the early 50s BT(C)P were the second largest Force in the country, only second to the Met.

You seem to be missing the rather key point that until the widespread force amalgamations in the 1960's and culminating in the amalgamations that came about with the local government act 1972 that pretty much define police force areas today the transport commission force was only so large because it had taken over policing from the big 5 and a lot of port and dock forces. I.e. it had already amalgamated when the territorial forces had not.

If you totalled up the number of officers in the area covered by for example Greater Manchester Police in the 1950's they would have been far larger than the BTCP of the time. Likewise with many other larger metropolitan forces like West Yorkshire or West Midlands.
 

Railwaysceptic

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They don't need to stab anyone. A 2.5 ton Range Rover is perfectly capable of being just as dangerous to pedestrians and other road users. My point was that not building a stop for Crossrail in Chelsea isn't going to be safer on balance versus taking traffic off of the road. That might have been overly subtle on my part.
You haven't been subtle enough! Including a station in SW3 on Crossrail 2 does not guarantee a reduction in road traffic, still less a reduction in the use of Range Rovers, still less again a reduction in road deaths and injuries. Many of the residents of Chelsea believe what would be guaranteed is an increase in vicious, anti-social undesirables visiting their area.
 

island

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At post 39 Horizon22 said an arrest ties up BTP officers for ages.
BT police are said to be railway specialists. They do not need to process an arrest. They could be on their way using their specialist skills(if they exist) on other calls.

They should immediately hand over the suspects to the local police who should have the responsibility for processing & detaining if necessary.
BTP travel 2 in a car so the second officer can give all the details to the local officers as they go to another railway job.
Doesn’t work that way I’m afraid. The arresting officer and their oppo (if they even have one) have to personally write statements of what they saw/did/etc. for the evidence and procedure.
Even that artificially high number, given that you haven't accounted for the budget also paying for over 200 PCSO, 250+ Special Constables and 1500 Police Staff, is pretty good value
I think you’ll find special constables aren’t paid.
Given the sudden increase in passengers with tickets once a staffed gateline, it's pretty mad it wasn't done 20 years before. But alas DfT are/were useless. Now it has as TfL in control, leaving many other stations on SE in need of the same. It wouldn't be prohibitively expensive at Plumstead, Belvedere, Charlton etc. Plumstead is due a rebuild soon - but no effort going in for a gateline. Kidbrooke just rebuilt without a gateline. Deptford rebuilt in recent years without one.
I agree that fare evasion is rife on Southeastern – it is my local TOC and I have my ticket checked about once a year – though the layout of several of the stations you mention is not conducive to gating. Kidbrooke, for example, has three entrances and whilst you could gate the main entrance on the up platform, the secondary entrance to that platform would be far more difficult to gate and the down platform impossible. Similar or worse situation at Blackheath, Lee, New Eltham (down side), Greenwich, and others.
 

ComUtoR

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Just to add further confusion/information. Some stations you are not allowed to gate as they have a public right of way going through them !
 

island

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Just to add further confusion/information. Some stations you are not allowed to gate as they have a public right of way going through them !
Only a very small number of stations fall under this, and even then as long as they provide a way through such as free platform tickets when the gates are closed it is still legal. See for example Guildford.
Also on Southeastern. Dartford and Ashford for two earlier this year.
Lewisham is another popular choice.
 

the sniper

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I think you’ll find special constables aren’t paid.

True, but they're not recruited, trained or equipped for free. They're also entitled to some expenses, though admittedly trivial in the grand scheme of things.
 
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