Staff travel. First Class on STD class Priv

[Gareth111278]

Hello All
I've got a Standard class TOC card to give me the 75% off Standard class fares. Some of my coleuges have the same & have been known to buy First class tickets at the 75% discount. They say they have never had a problem. I've never been brave enough.
I suppose the ultimate action a conductor / train manager could take is to ask you to leave the train, pay the full fare or even contact BTP?

Has anyone got an experience of doing this? Have you had any problem?

I'm just thinking of trying it for a short hop on Virgin from BHM - RUG on a Saturday lunch time

Cheers, Gareth

 

[gray1404]

Well, you might not even have your ticket checked in that short stretch. If there is a problem in such a situation then the best thing to do would be to tell the person checking the tickets that there must have been a misunderstanding and then say that you will move to standard. I would then physically stand up as if to go to move. In that case there can be no doubt.

 

[alistairlees]

Hello All
I've got a Standard class TOC card to give me the 75% off Standard class fares. Some of my coleuges have the same & have been known to buy First class tickets at the 75% discount. They say they have never had a problem. I've never been brave enough.
I suppose the ultimate action a conductor / train manager could take is to ask you to leave the train, pay the full fare or even contact BTP?

Has anyone got an experience of doing this? Have you had any problem?

I'm just thinking of trying it for a short hop on Virgin from BHM - RUG on a Saturday lunch time

Cheers, Gareth

Doesn't sound like a good idea to me:

Any person who is found to use improperly a staff travel card or pass, transfers or causes to be transferred such a card or pass, or attempts to do so, will be liable to prosecution, withdrawal of travel facilities and, if an employee, to possible dismissal.

That's from the rules summary at https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/files/Publications/services/rst/RST_Where_Can_I_Go.pdf

 

[gray1404]

I would have to agree with the above post. 75% off standard fares if such a good benefit it really would be a shame to do anything to spoil it. Moreover if it could lead to problems with your current job between you and your employer. However, taking Advantage of weekend first would not be disallowed would it. So you could buy a normal ticket and then pay the upgrade. Also, Virgin Trains West Coast allow persons travelling on an Anytime ticket to "upgrade to Weekend First free of charge on a Saturday, Sunday and bank holiday" so it might be cheaper to buy a PRIV Anytime ticket for Standard Class sit in first then when the Train Manager comes around you can do the above upgrade.

 

[Qwerty133]

I would have to agree with the above post. 75% off standard fares if such a good benefit it really would be a shame to do anything to spoil it. Moreover if it could lead to problems with your current job between you and your employer. However, taking Advantage of weekend first would not be disallowed would it. So you could buy a normal ticket and then pay the upgrade. Also, Virgin Trains West Coast allow persons travelling on an Anytime ticket to "upgrade to Weekend First free of charge on a Saturday, Sunday and bank holiday" so it might be cheaper to buy a PRIV Anytime ticket for Standard Class sit in first then when the Train Manager comes around you can do the above upgrade.

I wouldn't assume any offers such as that would apply to PRIV holders...
This is why staff keep asking for a staff only forum

 

[bb21]

Buying a discounted First Class ticket when not entitled to is worse imo than simply asking the TM if they mind you sitting in First with a Standard ticket, that is if you could even get it issued in the first place.

The former demonstrates clear intent to defraud while the worst that would happen with the latter is they say no, so you risk your priv being withdrawn and reported with the former, potentially resulting in losing your facilities altogether.

Not a good idea. I would never do it personally.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Virgin West Coast's Pricing Manager confirmed (and it's stated in KnowledgeBase, or was the last time I checked anyway) that the complimentary upgrade applies to discounted Anytime tickets including those with a PRIV discount. Holders of PRIV discounted tickets are also permitted to upgrade to Weekend First where available upon payment of the normal supplement.

Weekday upgrades would be calculated in the normal manner, namely the difference between the appropriate undiscounted First Class fare and the fare paid for a Single or both legs of a Return, or the difference between the fare paid and the sum of the appropriate Singles for one leg of a Return (or the full difference between the Returns where that's cheaper).

 

[philthetube]

Virgin West Coast's Pricing Manager confirmed (and it's stated in KnowledgeBase, or was the last time I checked anyway) that the complimentary upgrade applies to discounted Anytime tickets including those with a PRIV discount. Holders of PRIV discounted tickets are also permitted to upgrade to Weekend First where available upon payment of the normal supplement.

Weekday upgrades would be calculated in the normal manner, namely the difference between the appropriate undiscounted First Class fare and the fare paid for a Single or both legs of a Return, or the difference between the fare paid and the sum of the appropriate Singles for one leg of a Return (or the full difference between the Returns where that's cheaper).

I dont think this would be worth doing anytime single London Preston £175 anytime £43.75 priv. Off peak £88.30 priv £22.10. off peak return £89.30, £22.35 Priv, so not much difference on singles far cheaper to pay weekend first on returns.

I used to do this prior to off peak tickets being allowed to be bought with a priv though found many guards not aware of it even though happy to let me use it.

Sort of on topic, if you bought an anytime priv ticket at weekend could you reserve a first class seat?

 

[Merseysider]

Sort of on topic, if you bought an anytime priv ticket at weekend could you reserve a first class seat?

Probably not, as the upgrade is subject to availability of space and at the TM's discretion.

 

[Gareth111278]

Cheers for all the thoughts

I think I'll just ask if its OK / offer to pay the up-grade.
I didn't realise about the up-grade at weekends policy , its not worth trying to beat the system is it?

 

[Clip]

Cheers for all the thoughts

I think I'll just ask if its OK / offer to pay the up-grade.
I didn't realise about the up-grade at weekends policy , its not worth trying to beat the system is it?

No it isn't because the system will end up beating you and you could lose your job over it.

 

[greyman42]

Hello All
I've got a Standard class TOC card to give me the 75% off Standard class fares. Some of my coleuges have the same & have been known to buy First class tickets at the 75% discount. They say they have never had a problem. I've never been brave enough.
I suppose the ultimate action a conductor / train manager could take is to ask you to leave the train, pay the full fare or even contact BTP?

Has anyone got an experience of doing this? Have you had any problem?

I'm just thinking of trying it for a short hop on Virgin from BHM - RUG on a Saturday lunch time

Cheers, Gareth

I did not think it was possible to buy a first class priv ticket with a standard class priv. Have I misunderstood something here ?

 

[Gareth111278]

Good point. The ticket office staff should ask to see the TOC card. They clearly say 'Standard Class'
I wonder if the people I spoke to have a friend in the booking office

 

[bb21]

Those ticket office staff could themselves land in trouble if investigated.

The problem is that misuse of travel facitilies would be a matter for RSTL to handle, not the TOCs themselves (but of course the TOCs would have their own policies on top). If one's facilities are withdrawn and reported, it won't be up to the TOC to decide whether to give it back or not. My employer had emphasised this point very clearly before.

That's why I wouldn't risk it for no money in the world.

 

[furlong]

One word - don't.

Some of my coleuges have the same & have been known to buy First class tickets at the 75% discount.
I suppose the ultimate action a conductor / train manager could take is to ask you to leave the train, pay the full fare or even contact BTP?

The ultimate action could lead to dismissal with a criminal record.

 

[plcd1]

Hello All
I've got a Standard class TOC card to give me the 75% off Standard class fares. Some of my coleuges have the same & have been known to buy First class tickets at the 75% discount. They say they have never had a problem. I've never been brave enough.

Keep being "not brave enough". I've never dared do anything that would risk the loss of privilege / staff travel facilities. I am now fortunate enough to have "retired" facilities for NR and TfL and am extremely careful about how I use those facilities so as not to be outside any of the rules. Far too valuable a facility to lose and I don't have the worry about employment risk / disciplinary issues. It ain't worth it for a few quid and a roomier seat for a few miles.

 

[Mag_seven]

There is one thing I cannot abide and that's people who abuse privilege. They should count themselves lucky that they have a very generous travel benefit that not all those who work in the rail industry enjoy.

 

[MG11]

Hello All
I've got a Standard class TOC card to give me the 75% off Standard class fares. Some of my coleuges have the same & have been known to buy First class tickets at the 75% discount. They say they have never had a problem. I've never been brave enough.
I suppose the ultimate action a conductor / train manager could take is to ask you to leave the train, pay the full fare or even contact BTP?

Has anyone got an experience of doing this? Have you had any problem?

I'm just thinking of trying it for a short hop on Virgin from BHM - RUG on a Saturday lunch time

Cheers, Gareth

This is fraud and could well result in a RORA prosecution.

 

[Starmill]

The OP could simply pay the full fare, it is only £11.10 and would almost certainly guarantee a seat, if that is their priority. They could also wait in the First Class lounge. They might even get a cup of tea or coffee (!).

While I would not pay £11.10 for that myself it is not as overpriced as most First Class fares.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is fraud and could well result in a RORA prosecution.

It’s not a fraud, though it could result in a RoRA prosecution.

 

[furlong]

It’s not a fraud

That would be for the court to decide if it was prosecuted as such - OP knows they aren't entitled to obtain such a ticket or to use one.

 

[MG11]

It’s not a fraud, though it could result in a RoRA prosecution.

Claiming that they are entitled to a First Class journey, when in fact, they are not, is fraud. It's the same as buying a railcard discounted ticket, when you have no railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

Claiming that they are entitled to a First Class journey, when in fact, they are not, is fraud. It's the same as buying a railcard discounted ticket, when you have no railcard.

A fraud involves a deliberate deception; a false representation. Walking up to a booking office, showing your standard class Priv and asking for a First Class ticket is not a fraud. That’s exactly what’s being suggested in the OP.

There’s no trick or deception involved. It would be fraud if you falsified your Priv to say it had First Class facilities, for example, to trick the clerk into thinking you were so entitled.

Buying a railcard discounted ticket when you don’t have a railcard isn’t a fraud either, unless you did something like falsify a railcard or proof of purchase of one. You have to actually deceive someone to commit a fraud.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hello All
I've got a Standard class TOC card to give me the 75% off Standard class fares. Some of my coleuges have the same & have been known to buy First class tickets at the 75% discount. They say they have never had a problem. I've never been brave enough.
I suppose the ultimate action a conductor / train manager could take is to ask you to leave the train, pay the full fare or even contact BTP?

Has anyone got an experience of doing this? Have you had any problem?

I'm just thinking of trying it for a short hop on Virgin from BHM - RUG on a Saturday lunch time

I wouldn't. Fraud against your employer is gross misconduct and could result in summary dismissal.

Edit: OK, questionably fraud. But I would say a RoRA prosecution against you (which would stick as it is clearly a deliberate act) would make your job on the railway untenable, and therefore you're back to summary dismissal (and no more job on the railway of any kind) for gross misconduct.

I'm actually surprised that as staff you're even considering it to be even vaguely acceptable.

 

[MG11]

If the ticket sales person didn't ask to check the OP's Priv, which I imagine could potentially happen if the sales person was a close friend of the OP, then that could definitely be interprited as fraud. Because the OP would be implying that they are entitled to a First Class Priv. I agree that if the ticket sales person did check the OP's Priv and agreed to sell them First Class anyway, that could be different slightly. Either way, I doubt the OP's employer would be pleased with such activity.

 

[Haywain]

But I would say a RoRA prosecution against you (which would stick as it is clearly a deliberate act) would make your job on the railway untenable, and therefore you're back to summary dismissal (and no more job on the railway of any kind) for gross misconduct.

I doubt any train company would take court action against a member of its own staff for such an offence. Disciplinary action will be cheaper, has a lower burden of proof and will, in most cases, lead to more severe penalties being imposed.

 

[MG11]

I doubt any train company would take court action against a member of its own staff for such an offence. Disciplinary action will be cheaper, has a lower burden of proof and will, in most cases, lead to more severe penalties being imposed.

Unless they wanted to scapegoat the OP...

 

[Haywain]

Unless they wanted to scapegoat the OP...

I think dismissal achieves that pretty well.

 

[Johnsterling88]

So I had a member of another toc ask to buy a 1st priv so I asked to see his card and he produced priv card and a disabled railcard card which entitles 1st class. I sold it to him and got into trouble from my managers, but I disagreed as I think if he’s registered disabled he should be allowed to use the disabled railcard with his priv...any thoughts? I would have thought it would have been blatant discrimination to have refused him.

 

[Haywain]

So I had a member of another toc ask to buy a 1st priv so I asked to see his card and he produced priv card and a disabled railcard card which entitles 1st class. I sold it to him and got into trouble from my managers, but I disagreed as I think if he’s registered disabled he should be allowed to use the disabled railcard with his priv...any thoughts? I would have thought it would have been blatant discrimination to have refused him.

He is entitled to use his Disabled Railcard for the appropriate discount which is 34% off the PUBLIC 1st class fare. As a holder of a Priv card he is entitled to use that for a 75% discount off the public fare for the class of travel stated on the card which, I guess, in this case is standard. The rules for staff travel are very clear that the holder of standard class travel facilities must pay the public fare to travel in first class, and in this case the public fare would be that applicable to any other holder of a Disabled Railcard (or, indeed, a Senior Railcard). It is not discrimination to refuse someone a discount to which they are not entitled.