Stagecoach declining credit cards

[Somewhere]

See below thread. I have a credit card which Stagecoach doesn't like. It works to buy a ticket, but my account doesn't get debited, and if I try and use the card on a Stagecoach bus again the same day it gets declined.
I contacted Stagecoach, but after my original email they've ignored my responses when I've given them transaction details, so I'm none the wiser.
Does anyone know what's the issue with Stagecoach and certain credit cards?

Contactless Card Blocked By Stagecoach

Hi all. I recently purchased a "StagecoachSmart" card as this offers better value for money on a journey I make regularly. Unfortunately, the area this card covers is very limited, meaning I still have to buy paper tickets (using contactless payment) for journeys outside of this area. Prior...

www.railforums.co.uk

Doing Google searches, there seem to be lots of cards Stagecoach don't like, and randomly don't accept

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Make sure your card has been used regularly in chip and pin transactions, and you haven't made too many contactless transactions in a row (or reached the consecutive contactless limit or value depending on the issuer). These payments aren't like TfL that use a specific transit mode that means the PIN is never required. A PIN number can be required, but there is no way to enter it.

Make sure your card supports offline payments. If your credit rating is lower or your issuer is risk adverse, your card may not work unless the equipment scanning it has a mobile signal to get immediate verification.

Also make sure your card has never failed before - if you've accidentally or deliberately had insufficient funds - Stagecoach have probably blocked your card. The standard practice is that 10p or some small amount is pre-charged, and then at some later date once the payments are all finalised and batched up, the actual amount is adjusted. Some people max out their credit card, have enough for the 10p, but when the operator tries to bill the higher amount a few days later, it's declined, so they ban your card.

 

[Spsf3232]

Sounds like your card has been blacklisted due to payments not going through. If you have a payment that doesn't get authorized after purchase through what ever means then they will block the card from further purchases.

 

[Somewhere]

Make sure your card has been used regularly in chip and pin transactions, and you haven't made too many contactless transactions in a row (or reached the consecutive contactless limit or value depending on the issuer). These payments aren't like TfL that use a specific transit mode that means the PIN is never required. A PIN number can be required, but there is no way to enter it.

Make sure your card supports offline payments. If your credit rating is lower or your issuer is risk adverse, your card may not work unless the equipment scanning it has a mobile signal to get immediate verification.

Also make sure your card has never failed before - if you've accidentally or deliberately had insufficient funds - Stagecoach have probably blocked your card. The standard practice is that 10p or some small amount is pre-charged, and then at some later date once the payments are all finalised and batched up, the actual amount is adjusted. Some people max out their credit card, and when the operator tries to bill the higher amount a few days later, it's declined.

None of this is applicable. But surely they use transit mode if there's no way of entering a PIN and its offline? And surely I'd get a notification from my credit card company if there's a declined transaction?
It seems to be an issue at Stagecoach's end

Sounds like your card has been blacklisted due to payments not going through. If you have a payment that doesn't get authorized after purchase through what ever means then they will block the card from further purchases.

Yes, but why? There must be an issue with Stagecoach's systems that they're not dealing with.
Suits me, I'm getting free bus travel because of it! It's not like I haven't tried to engage with them to sort it out!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

None of this is applicable. But surely they use transit mode if there's no way of entering a PIN and its offline? And surely I'd get a notification from my credit card company if there's a declined transaction?
It seems to be an issue at Stagecoach's end


Yes, but why? There must be an issue with Stagecoach's systems that they're not dealing with.
Suits me, I'm getting free bus travel because of it! It's not like I haven't tried to engage with them to sort it out!

They don't use Transit Mode. There was a whole host of fraud with people buying weekly and monthly season tickets for 10p, knowing that the final amount would be declined - using an endless number of virtual or pre-paid cards. TfL obviously doesn't have that problem. The bus companies can shift the risk on to the issuer by only allowing fully authorised (online or offline) transactions.

If your card did need a PIN, and obviously there's no way to enter it on the bus, you wouldn't get a declined transaction notification as it's not been attempted - it would be aborted/cancelled before it even got as far as talking to the bank / asking for authorisation.

 

[Lewisham2221]

See below thread. I have a credit card which Stagecoach doesn't like. It works to buy a ticket, but my account doesn't get debited, and if I try and use the card on a Stagecoach bus again the same day it gets declined.
I contacted Stagecoach, but after my original email they've ignored my responses when I've given them transaction details, so I'm none the wiser.
Does anyone know what's the issue with Stagecoach and certain credit cards?

Contactless Card Blocked By Stagecoach

Hi all. I recently purchased a "StagecoachSmart" card as this offers better value for money on a journey I make regularly. Unfortunately, the area this card covers is very limited, meaning I still have to buy paper tickets (using contactless payment) for journeys outside of this area. Prior...

www.railforums.co.uk

Doing Google searches, there seem to be lots of cards Stagecoach don't like, and randomly don't accept

Sounds like an issue with your bank/card provider. The payments aren't authorised in real-time, so you're able to purchase your ticket and the bank are then declining the payment later, which leads to your card being temporarily blacklisted by Stagecoach.

 

[Somewhere]

Sounds like an issue with your bank/card provider. The payments aren't authorised in real-time, so you're able to purchase your ticket and the bank are then declining the payment later, which leads to your card being temporarily blacklisted by Stagecoach.

Why does it sound like an issue with my bank rather that Stagecoach?
Other bus companies do a pre-authorisation for 10p. Another bus company had done one earlier in the day

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Why does it sound like an issue with my bank rather that Stagecoach?

If it were a problem with Stagecoach, they'd not be taking any card payments at all.

If everyone else's card works on a bus, and yours is the only one that doesn't - it's at least extremely probable that there's an issue specifically with your card.

If you know that it doesn't work on buses, and if you continue to rely on this, knowing full well that it won't work - you're treading a very fine line when it comes to fraud. I think it is irresponsible if your default reaction is that this means you get to ride for free forever more.

 

[Somewhere]

If it were a problem with Stagecoach, they'd not be taking any card payments at all.

If everyone else's card works on a bus, and yours is the only one that doesn't - it's at least extremely probable that there's an issue specifically with your card.

Doing a Google search would suggest otherwise. I've attempted to engage with Stagecoach, but after my initial email they've ignored me. Sounds like an issue with them.
Like I say, they're the ones out of pocket, not me

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Doing a Google search would suggest otherwise. I've attempted to engage with Stagecoach, but after my initial email they've ignored me. Sounds like an issue with them.
Like I say, they're the ones out of pocket, not me

You still owe the money, legally.

You are relying on drivers continuing not to follow the correct procedures in these circumstances. In the rare event that the police and revenue inspectors check your bus, I'd not be comfortable explaining your regular "free" travel.

 

[Somewhere]

You still owe the money, legally.

You are relying on drivers continuing not to follow the correct procedures in these circumstances. In the rare event that the police and revenue inspectors check your bus, I'd not be comfortable explaining your regular "free" travel.

I have a ticket, as I've explained. I'm not here to argue with someone who hasn't read and understood my posts. I would not be travelling illegally if I've tendered a credit card and the machine has issued me a ticket.
Like I've explained more than once, I've tried to engage with Stagecoach, but if they don't want my money, it's their problem
If you've nothing helpful to add, I suggest moving on to another poster to falsely accuse of something

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I have a ticket, as I've explained. I'm not here to argue with someone who hasn't read and understood my posts. I would not be travelling illegally if I've tendered a credit card and the machine has issued me a ticket.
If you've nothing helpful to add, I suggest moving on to another poster to falsely accuse of something

You really don't understand the law.

You have promised to pay Stagecoach an amount of money, and promise them that you will pay them that sum of money in return for a ticket.

For whatever reason, you never pay that money they you owe them for services that you have used and promised to pay for.

You repeatedly do this, knowing this is the case and that your side of the contract will never be fulfilled. You justify this by claiming it must be their problem. The reality is that you do not know whether it s problem with you, your card, your issuer or Stagecoach, but you do know there is a problem that means that your payment is invalid and will fail.

You seem to think that your obligation to pay Stagecoach has just vanished - and you have no obligation here.

That is, in most circumstances, fraud. You have obtained that ticket on the basis that payment (in full) will be made, and you know that it will not be, and you have done this repeatedly, and continue to do so. That is called fraud by false representation.

I am inclined to believe that Stagecoach have banned your card, given your own admissions.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Why does it sound like an issue with my bank rather that Stagecoach?
Other bus companies do a pre-authorisation for 10p. Another bus company had done one earlier in the day

Because of the reasons I stated in my post. The only issue with Stagecoach I can see is why their card blacklist apparently resets on a daily basis, rather than a longer period (assuming you are travelling daily/several times a week).

 

[Somewhere]

You really don't understand the law.

You have promised to pay Stagecoach an amount of money, and promise them that you will pay them that sum of money in return for a ticket.

For whatever reason, you never pay that money they you owe them for services that you have used and promised to pay for.

You repeatedly do this, knowing this is the case and that your side of the contract will never be fulfilled. You justify this by claiming it must be their problem.

You seem to think that your obligation to pay Stagecoach has just vanished - and you have no obligation here.

That is, in most circumstances, fraud.

If the machine accepts my card, and issues me a ticket, how am I to know that my account will not be debited?
They can have the money they are owed. They have ignored my communications. How am I supposed to pay them?
I think this thread has gone way over your head

Because of the reasons I stated in my post. The only issue with Stagecoach I can see is why their card blacklist apparently resets on a daily basis, rather than a longer period (assuming you are travelling daily/several times a week).

It resets after 45 days, according to their website. I am not that frequent a traveller.
Unless they don't do a pre-authourisation like other companies and I will end up getting debited?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

If the machine accepts my card, and issues me a ticket, how am I to know that my account will not be debited?
I think this thread has gone way over your head


It resets after 45 days, according to their website. I am not that frequent a traveller.
Unless they don't do a pre-authourisation like other companies and I will end up getting debited?

But you do know that your account has not been debited. You seem to think you've found a magic loophole to get free travel - you're committing fraud. A reasonable and honest person would not be continuing to do this.

 

[Somewhere]

But you do know that your account has not been debited. You seem to think you've found a magic loophole to get free travel - you're committing fraud. A reasonable and honest person would not be continuing to do this.

I don't know until afterwards. The transactions are not online like they are in most circumstances.
I can assure you this is not fraud. Like I say, if you cannot offer any sensible advice, go and annoy someone else.
False accusations aren't really helpful. How would you define continuing to do this?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I don't know until afterwards. The transactions are not online like they are in most circumstances.
I can assure you this is not fraud. Like I say, if you cannot offer any sensible advice, go and annoy someone else.
False accusations aren't really helpful. How would you define continuing to do this?

It really is very likely to be fraud - you might not like to hear that - but it is very likely to be fraud.

Are you sending them the money you know you owe them once you discover a payment has been declined by your bank?

You can't continue to exploit this situation.

The railway used to prosecute people regularly for very similar behaviour when they used older ticket machines that worked offline. The longer this goes on, the more money you owe, the more Stagecoach start to notice - and it's hardly going to be difficult to find you if you're getting on and off their buses with time stamped transactions and CCTV.

 

[Somewhere]

It really is very likely to be fraud - you might not like to hear that - but it is very likely to be fraud.

Are you sending them the money you know you owe them once you discover a payment has been declined by your bank?

You really haven't got a clue. Fraud has to be intentional for a start. I have tried to pay a £2 bus fare, and when my account has not been debited, I've made enquiries. How is that fraud?
How am I to send them money when they haven't responded?

You're not being helpful. I've come on here with a genuine enquiry, and you're jumping down my throat accusing me of fraud.
Do you work in the rail industry? Because it sounds like you're the reason all these court cases are happening with all these false prosecutions.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

You really haven't got a clue. Fraud has to be intentional for a start. I have tried to pay a £2 bus fare, and when my account has not been debited, I've made enquiries. How is that fraud?
How am I to send them money when they haven't responded?

You do know that your card is always declined and that Stagecoach end up not being paid.

Section 11 of the Fraud Act only requires a "dishonest act" - I think most people would consider your behaviour to be dishonest after the first couple of trips.

Your exact scenario is specified in Section 11(2).

(2)A person obtains services in breach of this subsection if—

(a)they are made available on the basis that payment has been, is being or will be made for or in respect of them,

 

[Lewisham2221]

It resets after 45 days, according to their website. I am not that frequent a traveller.
Unless they don't do a pre-authourisation like other companies and I will end up getting debited?

So you travel less frequently than every 45 days, i.e your card will have been removed from the blacklist each time you travel again?

It sounds very much like the initial payment is being declined, but as previously explained it is a deferred authorisation - the system collects your card details, issues your ticket and some time late attempts to obtain the payment from your bank/card provider. If your bank/card provider declines the payment for whatever reason (which sounds to be the case), Stagecoach will blacklist your card and any further attempts to use it to pay onboard Stagecoach will be instantly declined until your card is removed from the blacklist. Only your bank/card provider will know why they are not authorising the payments.

 

[Somewhere]

You do know that your card is always declined and that Stagecoach end up not being paid.

Section 11 of the Fraud Act only requires a "dishonest act" - I think most people would consider your behaviour to be dishonest after the first couple of trips.

Define 'always'. How am I being dishonest?

So you travel less frequently than every 45 days, i.e your card will have been removed from the blacklist each time you travel again?

It sounds very much like the initial payment is being declined, but as previously explained it is a deferred authorisation - the system collects your card details, issues your ticket and some time late attempts to obtain the payment from your bank/card provider. If your bank/card provider declines the payment for whatever reason (which sounds to be the case), Stagecoach will blacklist your card and any further attempts to use it to pay onboard Stagecoach will be instantly declined until your card is removed from the blacklist. Only your bank/card provider will know why they are not authorising the payments.

I've travelled twice. Same thing happened both times. Assumed the first time was a one off, but happened the second time too.
Just seems really odd that my bank would have an issue with Stagecoach and no one else. And there are other posts on the internet saying the same thing, which would suggest it is Stagecoach that is the issue

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Define 'always'. How am I being dishonest?


I've travelled twice. Same thing happened both times. Assumed the first time was a one off, but happened the second time too

Two times is reasonable. You'd make it sound like it had been a recurring issue. That's slightly different as it's more reasonable.

You know now anyway that you should use a different card.

 

[Somewhere]

Two times is reasonable. You'd make it sound like it had been a recurring issue. That's slightly different as it's more reasonable.

You know now anyway that you should use a different card.

I didn't make it sound like anything. You have made an erroneous assumption.
I will use whatever card I wish. I don't need your opinion on the matter, as you've nothing useful to add to the conversation.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I didn't make it sound like anything. You have made an erroneous assumption.
I will use whatever card I wish. I don't need your opinion on the matter, as you've nothing useful to add to the conversation.

Your opening post implied that in one day alone you'd tried your card multiple times, when now you're saying you've actually only done this twice in total?

 

[Somewhere]

Your opening post implied that in one day alone you'd tried your card multiple times, when now you're saying you've actually only done this twice in total?

A multiple of twice in one day. Implied doesn't mean anything, that's just your interpretation of something that hasn't been said. The second time it was declined, so I used another card. Stagecoach are out of pocket by £2, and I've tried to contact them to sort it out.
And I used the bus again today, and no amount has been debited. Unless it will be taken and there was just no pre-authourisation.
Where's the fraud?

 

[Lewisham2221]

A multiple of twice in one day. Implied doesn't mean anything, that's just your interpretation of something that hasn't been said. The second time it was declined, so I used another card. Stagecoach are out of pocket by £2, and I've tried to contact them to sort it out.
And I used the bus again today, and no amount has been debited. Unless it will be taken and there was just no pre-authourisation.
Where's the fraud?

To be fair, the wording of your original post and your second post did make it sound very much like this was a pattern you'd identified from much more regular travel.

I'd wait and see if any transaction appears for your travel today. If it doesn't, you may want to contact your bank/card provider to see if they can tell you why your transactions aren't being authorised.

 

[Somewhere]

To be fair, the wording of your original post and your second post did make it sound very much like this was a pattern you'd identified from much more regular travel.

I'd wait and see if any transaction appears for your travel today. If it doesn't, you may want to contact your bank/card provider to see if they can tell you why your transactions aren't being authorised.

I'll give it a couple of days. But also to be fair, I wasn't asking for an unsolicited opinion as @Tazi Hupefi seems to think!

 

[WibbleWobble]

Why does it sound like an issue with my bank rather that Stagecoach?
Other bus companies do a pre-authorisation for 10p. Another bus company had done one earlier in the day

Banks don't like large numbers of consecutive micro-transactions (i.e. small amounts on contactless) - it can be a sign of someone using someone else's card. By entering your PIN somewhere, you're confirming to the bank that you still have the card - it doesn't need to be a transaction, you could put your card into a cash machine, enter your pin, then press cancel to return the card - you have still confirmed to the bank you have the card.

 

[Edvid]

A renewed issue of my credit card is blocked by Stagecoach East. Its Google Pay token works just fine, the previous physical issue worked, and the current physical issue works elsewhere (including with Stagecoach Midlands), but for some reason has never been accepted on Stagecoach East.

I sent an email to them about 4 weeks ago (with sales receipts) and will probably chase them up later this week.

Other bus companies do a pre-authorisation for 10p. Another bus company had done one earlier in the day

Yes, that's how it works for operators contracted with Ticketer & Littlepay (i.e. the majority). MasterCard transit-mode preauths are 10p; don't know what Visa's are.
Preauths are usually generated within 10 minutes of the transaction, or so my Google Pay history suggests.

Stagecoach's group-wide contract with Vix is an exception; unless I'm mistaken their machines have to be connected in the depots for the preauths (at full transaction value) to be generated.

 

[richw]

Because of the reasons I stated in my post. The only issue with Stagecoach I can see is why their card blacklist apparently resets on a daily basis, rather than a longer period (assuming you are travelling daily/several times a week).

The black list is 45 days. The 45 days resets and starts counting from day 1 every time the card is reattempted.

The machines are offline and there doesn’t seem any pattern to when the payment is collected. I assume it’s linked to when the machine connects or is downloaded in the depot.

Go ahead seem to take the previous weeks payments all on Monday morning for example.

A multiple of twice in one day. Implied doesn't mean anything, that's just your interpretation of something that hasn't been said. The second time it was declined, so I used another card. Stagecoach are out of pocket by £2, and I've tried to contact them to sort it out.
And I used the bus again today, and no amount has been debited. Unless it will be taken and there was just no pre-authourisation.
Where's the fraud?

It will be taken at some point in the future when the machine is downloaded. It is entirely offline with no connection to pre auth 10p like other ticket machines do, however the second transaction declining points to the card having been declined when they’ve downloaded the machine after the original transaction, and them blacklisting your card number.