Stagecoach disqualified from three franchise competitions

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by ah-media, 10 Apr 2019.

  1. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    No because they always need to try to keep other bidder(s) honest.
    Potentially very entertaining for SE tender as Stagecoach are probably out (DfT may have to reconsider the pension issue when the legal action and select committee grillings start). Govia will now have very good idea what Abellio are doing and Abellio are probably wondering if they have had an "oops" moment and might be signing them selves up for another "oops".
     
  2. 3141

    3141 Established Member

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    So the pensions scheme at East Midlands will now be guaranteed by the Dutch state rail operator, and hence by the Dutch government! Very reassuring for East Midlands employees, and we should hear no grumbles about profits from British railway operations going abroad (assuming they make any profits). But people in the Netherlands may see the situation differently.
     
  3. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    Could Abellio have leaked the news of Stagecoach’s bid details being sent to Abellio with the hope the the process gets stopped now, as they realise they have screwed up on the pensions issue (both the other bidders having refused to agree to it)?
     
  4. Brissle Girl

    Brissle Girl Member

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    Unlikely since the investigation was completed well before the announcement of the winner.
     
  5. TT-ONR-NRN

    TT-ONR-NRN On Moderation

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    Where does Virgin Trains stand now then? Is there a slight, slight chance that Virgin Trains might be able to continue perhaps now, whether it’s remaining as Virgin Trains or under a new name like West Coast by Virgin it matters not, I just feel keen to know if Virgin might have a small glimmer of hope now?
     
  6. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    What I'm left wondering is whether Abellio is entitled to say "actually, we don't want to sign the contract any more". If they do, that leaves them with an awful lot of bargaining power over the DfT...
     
  7. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    You are missing the point.
     
  8. Malcolmffc

    Malcolmffc Member

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    Highly unlikely.
     
  9. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    If it is unsustainable and DfT try to bail Abelio out then Stagecoach abd/or Arriva will doubtless take legal action. DfT have painted themselves into a corner.
     
  10. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    If DfT did that and it can be proved Stagecoach and Arriva should get their bid costs back as a bare minimum.
     
  11. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    Not really. Arriva and Stagecoach will sue if DfT changes the goalposts now..
     
  12. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    It's just a brand, at the end of the day.

    For example, when Virgin Radio was bought around a decade ago, the new owners didn't continue paying for the Virgin brand (it wasn't owned by Virgin since around 2000), it's just a name that people licence to help promote a business.

    Virgin may start companies up (or buy companies and slap their branding on it) but do so with the plan to sell the business at a future date on the assumption that putting the Virgin brand on it will make it worth more than other companies.

    Look at how Virgin Media seems much more interesting than NTL/ Telewest (or the various other cable brands). The Virgin name may be a thin veneer but it's sufficient "sparkle" for sufficient people to pay sufficiently more money. Hence buying up assets like Northern Rock cheap, knowing that you can sell "Virgin Money" for much more £££ than a boring old Building Society.

    Another company (e.g. National Express, Keolis...) may decide to pay for the Virgin name in future to make one of their franchises more interesting/ appealing.

    This is the modern world. Like, there's a guy in Sheffield who owns a number of food outlets, some of which he operates as McDonalds franchises or Subway franchises, and a couple without that kind of branding.
     
  13. Michael Bolton

    Michael Bolton New Member

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    I'm not sure that Chiltern are that great - once but the last 10 years they have been run down and many people feel they were "not were they were"
     
  14. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    They are probably wondering quite how far they have over stretched themselves now and how much less they could have got away with or how much lower a "premium"* they could have offered.
    * negative in reality i.e. how much more subsidy they could have asked for.
    The question is how many people would have known: DfT, NR, Stagecoach, Abellio and consultants and lawyers and what the motivations are. Stagecoach and Abellio are only logical ones to bring it up again.
    Abellio will certainly have overpaid, the question is how badly for them.

    The big impact is on SE as it is now a 2 horse race and Govia probably have fairly good idea what Abellio thinking might be now introducing lots of asymmetry in the bidding process.
    Abellio might be less keen on winning SE having won EM anyway and Stagecoach can watch DfT have to accept what Govia offers.

    With so many disasters DfT's bank accounts are pretty bare and the income for increasing franchise payments hasn't been rolling in, making DfT even more desperate and making it even harder to get improvements in the early years of newly let franchises as time goes on and the disasters / mishaps keep happening.
     
  15. cactustwirly

    cactustwirly Established Member

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    10 years ago Chiltern was owned by DB Regio, this passed onto Arriva when they were bought by DB
     
  16. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    If Abellio didn't sign (which they may decide not to), it would have to go to back to the beginning and start again. However with the Williams Review in full force that could be some time but in any event either an extension with Stagecoach - the current operator would have to be agreed or Directly Operated Railways would have to take over.
     
  17. Ticket Man

    Ticket Man Member

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    Can't see foreign state back companies bailing out UK pension deficits for too long. Could you imagine the houses of parliament if UK backed companies were shelling out for dutch pensions, would be like Brexit 2.0
     
  18. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Virgin Rail Group will end this year. As I've said repeatedly, but an awful lot of people haven't noticed or haven't taken in, all post-VTWC bids under the Virgin brand have been majority Stagecoach with a brand licence and a small cut to Virgin. So what you would get in such a case is not an extension of the present VTWC, but an entirely different, more EMT/VTEC-like Stagecoach operation with a bit of red branding on it.

    This is why I'm not too bothered about the whole thing. I would have liked to see Virgin Rail Group continue, i.e. the present operation to continue as is and then slowly take over HS2 with minimal consultancy-type involvement from one of the European railways. However that is not and never was on the table.
     
  19. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    This doesn't surprise me one bit - Arriva do seem to turn near enough everything they touch to mediocrity.
     
  20. boxy321

    boxy321 Member

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    Chiltern's fleet is horribly old now. Gaffer tape holding seats together, collapsed cushions, dodgy electrics. They are hanging on by their finger tips.
     
  21. Kettledrum

    Kettledrum Member

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    I can't see this happening
     
  22. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Just like every single Arriva bus operation. Shame it couldn't stay in direct DB AG control rather than the Sunderland cost-cutters getting their grubby mitts on it.
     
  23. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Arriva North West and Arriva Wales have had plenty of new buses delivered in the past couple of years. See http://www.ukbuses.co.uk/fleet/anw.pdf for details.

    And Arriva Rail North is procuring 98 new trains....
     
  24. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Yes, but they rapidly end up in a state because they don't get maintained properly.

    XC's 170s are also filthy and held together with gaffer tape. ("Tysotape", I've heard it called, given the depot that maintains them :D )
     
  25. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I think for the time being the best thing to do is lock this thread. We've gone well off-topic here and there haven't been any developments as yet regarding Stagecoach's disqualification so there doesn't seem to be anything new to discuss currently. When there are developments please feel free to report this post the Forum Staff will look at re-opening this thread.
     
  26. HouseOfCommons

    HouseOfCommons Verified Rep - House of Commons

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    Thanks ainsworth74 for reopening the thread. We just wanted to bring your attention to an urgent question from Michael Fallon MP yesterday in the House of Commons on this issue.

    He asked Andrew Jones, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport, to make a statement on his decision to delay the award of the south-eastern rail franchise.

    After the statement, Michael Fallon pressed Andrew Jones further, asking
    Responding, Andrew Jones MP said that
    Several other MPs spoke during the debate to raise issues with rail services, both nationally and in their constituencies.

    You can find a full transcript of the debate on Hansard
    You can watch it on parliamentlive.tv

    --

    If an urgent or important matter arises which an MP believes requires an immediate answer from a government minister, they may apply to ask an urgent question. These are granted if the Speaker is satisfied that the question is urgent and of public importance. More on our How Parliament works page: Urgent questions.
     
  27. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Stagecoach don't think they will be getting back into rail anytime soon. They've announced they are using the capital that was set aside to be used for their rail division to instead do a £60m share buyback.
     
  28. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I'm actually surprised they don't throw it into Megabus to give the new rail operations a proper run for their money.
     
  29. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    I wonder how they were able to work oh they didn't open the attachment, given it was several months later that the investigation took place.

    I wonder if they read the e-mail and was there a preview of the attachment, even if they didn't open it.

    If there was a preview, what did they see? These are the kinds of things lawyers might want to know the answers to.
     
  30. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    How it's stated they were attachments. Of course that could be an error or someone not understanding the difference.
     
    Last edited: 7 May 2019

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