Stagecoach disqualified from three franchise competitions

[richardderby]

Frankly, he deserves all the "bashing" he gets in my book. And as long as he is chairman and therefore, one would assume, handsomely remunerated out of Stagecoach's coffers, it will irk me to have no option but to put any money at all into that company.

Feel exactly the same about Souter, avoid spending my cash at stagecoach operations for exactly the same reasons, where there is an alternative, as I am sure do many who were around In the 80s/90s...

 

[Goldfish62]

I don't like his opinions on LGBT... issues, though as I am strongly in favour of free speech he is entitled to them just as I am entitled to say they are wrong. But that doesn't mean he is not competent to run a large public transport company - he demonstrably is. Though I do tend generally to separate work from personal life quite strongly - the only thing relevant to his work is whether he can do his job, nothing else. I'd be unlikely to want to be his friend, but that's neither here nor there to the ability to do his job.

He doesn't run Stagecoach these days. He's the chairman and doesn't have voting rights on the board. However, he still has a lot of influence and Martin Griffiths wheels him out as the public face at launches and other events.

 

[Dave1987]

Fundamentally, final salary pensions simply don't work because investments are unstable and because the working population is declining. The State pension, which is defined-benefit, is having similar issues.

That one self-serving member of senior management manages to fund his is neither here nor there.

And you wonder where the rise of populism, socialism and nationalisation comes from? If one person is allowed to get away with giving himself a massive defined benefit pension at the expense of the rest of the mere mortals then it definitely creates resentment which fuels the fire of those seek change and hence the rise of sentiment towards populism. That's why the nationalisation debate never goes away because the franchise system has never been made to work properly. Things like this that serve to make the retirement prospects of ALL railway employees worse is not likely to endear staff towards the franchise process and towards to the companies who bid to run franchises. The country faces a very serious pensions problem in the future because pension schemes are getting worse and worse except for a few at the top. Yes that is a debate for another thread but this is a prime example of how the country faces a very big crisis for ordinary working people's retirement income.

 

[Class 466]

Given Stagecoach run most of the buses in East Kent I’m glad they’re out of the running for the SE franchise- it would totally starve the last bits of competition left in Kent.

I also cannot stand Souter and his views on the rights of LGBT people (of which I am one). Plenty of dinosaurs out there still however!

 

[JonathanH]

The country faces a very serious pensions problem in the future because pension schemes are getting worse and worse except for a few at the top.

That isn't strictly true. The reduction in the Annual Allowance for people who pay the top rate of income tax means that many 'at the top' have had to opt out of pension arrangements because they simply aren't tax efficient any more.

 

[Meerkat]

Would Virgin be interested in backing any of the open access schemes?
The OA operators have a small time vibe (even when owned by big companies) so a bit of Virgin magic could do wonders for their profiles. Also a lot more freedom for them to innovate with service, layouts, ticketing.
And they could annoy the DfT in the process!

 

[Bletchleyite]

And you wonder where the rise of populism, socialism and nationalisation comes from? If one person is allowed to get away with giving himself a massive defined benefit pension at the expense of the rest of the mere mortals then it definitely creates resentment which fuels the fire of those seek change and hence the rise of sentiment towards populism.

Only because people are ignorant of the realities of those roles. They aren't a walk in the park, they carry massive responsibility to go with the massive salaries. I wouldn't want that kind of role for any money. And if you don't pay those kinds of figures for senior management, that's where the Muppet Show lies.

 

[Robertj21a]

And you wonder where the rise of populism, socialism and nationalisation comes from? If one person is allowed to get away with giving himself a massive defined benefit pension at the expense of the rest of the mere mortals then it definitely creates resentment which fuels the fire of those seek change and hence the rise of sentiment towards populism. That's why the nationalisation debate never goes away because the franchise system has never been made to work properly. Things like this that serve to make the retirement prospects of ALL railway employees worse is not likely to endear staff towards the franchise process and towards to the companies who bid to run franchises. The country faces a very serious pensions problem in the future because pension schemes are getting worse and worse except for a few at the top. Yes that is a debate for another thread but this is a prime example of how the country faces a very big crisis for ordinary working people's retirement income.

I don't disagree with some of what you write but I did hark back to 'Animal Farm' on occasions.

 

[syorksdeano]

I'm sure I've read somewhere today (might be Sunday telegraph or something) that Stagecoach have now formally informed the DfT that they might go to court over all this

Edit: It was the telegraph but its behind a pay wall https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...s-legal-attack-chris-grayling-decision-block/

Stagecoach has dramatically raised the stakes in its battle with Chris Grayling over his decision to derail its train operation, with a threat of court action against the embattled Transport Secretary.

The row over pension liabilities intensified this weekend as Stagecoach’s lawyers issued the Department for Transport with demands for information about its exclusion from bidding on train franchises.

The letter, extracts of which have been seen by The Sunday Telegraph, is understood to be a prelude to potential High Court action.[\quote]

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If there is a legal challenge in the 10-day standstill period, it could well delay the new franchise start date, and any proposed rolling stock contracts.
Some challenges fail quite quickly, but others drag on through the courts until honour is satisfied.
Stagecoach has nothing to lose with a challenge, with no other franchise at stake.

 

[Dave1987]

I don't disagree with some of what you write but I did hark back to 'Animal Farm' on occasions.

Coming from you I take that as a compliment.....

 

[kieron]

To be fair, most forum members probably weren't alive when the whole government wasn't inept.

The War Ministry was also inept. They only made up for it by being able to have anyone who callefd them out on it arrested.

The current set do seem to be unusually bad, though, both in the decisions they take and their attempts to implement them.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If there is a legal challenge in the 10-day standstill period, it could well delay the new franchise start date, and any proposed rolling stock contracts.
Some challenges fail quite quickly, but others drag on through the courts until honour is satisfied.
Stagecoach has nothing to lose with a challenge, with no other franchise at stake.

It has a lot to lose if there are no grounds. Money on legal fees, reputation, investor confidence to name three. Some Virgin / Branson groupies claiming there are dodgy dealings on social media doesn’t mean there are. We saw the same thing when VTEC handed back the keys – Stagecoach / Virgin have grounds to sue Network Rail (and no doubt the DfT) – turned out they didn’t.

 

[Wolfie]

It has a lot to lose if there are no grounds. Money on legal fees, reputation, investor confidence to name three. Some Virgin / Branson groupies claiming there are dodgy dealings on social media doesn’t mean there are. We saw the same thing when VTEC handed back the keys – Stagecoach / Virgin have grounds to sue Network Rail (and no doubt the DfT) – turned out they didn’t.

Social media chatter and a pre-action letter, which is what the letter described by the Telegraph is, are two very different things. I'm sure DfT will love the disclosure aspects involved in litigation for a start...
If RDG have been telling DfT there is an issue and have been ignored Arriva might well join any litigation too..

 

[Killingworth]

If there is a legal challenge in the 10-day standstill period, it could well delay the new franchise start date, and any proposed rolling stock contracts.
Some challenges fail quite quickly, but others drag on through the courts until honour is satisfied.
Stagecoach has nothing to lose with a challenge, with no other franchise at stake.

The announcement of the successful bidder came earlier than some expected, not a few suggesting there was likely to be a further delay until the end of the year, if not into 2020. It looks to me like a desk clearing exercise, let's get this one clear. If they sue, they sue and let the courts decide. A different approach to long grass strategy?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Round 2... fight! Stagecoach win!

Will the DfT ever learn... providing the facts are as Stagecoach present them to be, there is no way the DfT can get away with changing the goal posts (especially as seems to be the case in South Eastern) - EU tender rules (ironically for Grayling) will slap them down.

 

[6Gman]

I will absolutely miss Virgin Trains when they go. I travel on a weekly basis between Manchester and London and have enjoyed the vast majority of my journeys.

I am big fan of Virgin though, I love the way they try to make things a bit more fun than the drearily boring other TOCs like Abellio, Africa etc.

I hope the DfT knows what it is doing but sadly I am sure that this will not be the case!

I know a lot of TOCs have overseas owners, but Africa ! ? !

 

[sprunt]

Not a massive fan of a lot of the Virgin hype and "wackyness"

I had the shop attendant who does his announcements in (very bad) poetry today. It was painful.

 

[StaffsWCML]

Still would rather a company with a bit of heart and wackiness then the grey dull average monotonous bilge of companies taking over our networks. Whatever is said about Virgin at least their trains have something that sets them apart whether you like it or not. The others are just a duller version of a state operator, just a state operator from another state!

There is literally nothing good funny or enjoyable about the likes of West Midlands Trains or London Northwestern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is literally nothing good funny or enjoyable about the likes of West Midlands Trains or London Northwestern.

Their look and feel is very amateurish, I agree. However I think London Midland did manage (with Best Impressions, who's surprised there? ) an excellent "look and feel" which while a little more professional than VT's approach to me was bright, lively and attractive and is now noticeable by its absence. Like VT's approach it also made the train the brand - the whole thing was based around a stylised Class 350.

 

[StaffsWCML]

Their look and feel is very amateurish, I agree. However I think London Midland did manage (with Best Impressions, who's surprised there? ) an excellent "look and feel" which while a little more professional than VT's approach to me was bright, lively and attractive and is now noticeable by its absence. Like VT's approach it also made the train the brand - the whole thing was based around a stylised Class 350.

I agree London Midland were a little different. They offered something that set them apart a little to in their cheaper prices, and good connectivity from smaller stations. They had their faults but the services is now noticeably worse and with less personality too. The whole experience is dull.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree London Midland were a little different. They offered something that set them apart a little to in their cheaper prices, and good connectivity from smaller stations. They had their faults but the services is now noticeably worse and with less personality too. The whole experience is dull.

To some extent it mirrored Megabus's branding in appealing to the low-cost customer on the longer distance services but also didn't look terrible to the commuters (who probably don't mind how it looks as long as they get a seat and it shows up on time).

 

[sprunt]

There is literally nothing good funny or enjoyable about the likes of West Midlands Trains or London Northwestern.

Why should there be anything funny about them? I don't expect them to make me laugh any more than I expect Billy Connolly to move me around the country.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is literally nothing good funny or enjoyable about the likes of West Midlands Trains or London Northwestern.

Because they are operating franchises where the average fares are about £5 and £15 respectively.

Hopefully you can see the difference in branding (and why Virgin won't bid for a commuter franchise).

 

[StaffsWCML]

Why should there be anything funny about them? I don't expect them to make me laugh any more than I expect Billy Connolly to move me around the country.

I don't see why they have to be so utterly dull though, people were criticising Virgin for having some personality. On a grey Monday in November I don't really mind a train company that at least try to make my day a little less mundane!

Because they are operating franchises where the average fares are about £5 and £15 respectively.

Hopefully you can see the difference in branding (and why Virgin won't bid for a commuter franchise).

I can see the difference. As has been mentioned London Midland achieved considerably more at the same price point and services, EMT was a bolder/recognisable if dated brand. I wouldn't necessarily mind them being dull if they were good or even average.

 

[pt_mad]

I agree London Midland were a little different. They offered something that set them apart a little to in their cheaper prices, and good connectivity from smaller stations. They had their faults but the services is now noticeably worse and with less personality too. The whole experience is dull.

I don't get that. The current service pattern is the same as under LM as things stand. So how has the price point and smaller station connectivity changed since the franchise changed hands? I don't quite see how personality can come from a green yellow and black train livery and logo? The new operator has already wrapped 10 trains in special livery such as Harry Potter world which surely is giving things some personality?

To some extent it mirrored Megabus's branding in appealing to the low-cost customer on the longer distance services but also didn't look terrible to the commuters (who probably don't mind how it looks as long as they get a seat and it shows up on time).

So basically you're suggesting that was bargain basement type operation in the way Megabus can be perceived? Did everyone get a seat or are longer trains more of a desire from commuters and more general travelers? Longer trains and new trains without drastic price increases sounds like a win win to me.

I don't see why they have to be so utterly dull though, people were criticising Virgin for having some personality. On a grey Monday in November I don't really mind a train company that at least try to make my day a little less mundane!



I can see the difference. As has been mentioned London Midland achieved considerably more at the same price point and services, EMT was a bolder/recognisable if dated brand. I wouldn't necessarily mind them being dull if they were good or even average.

The price point hasn't changed as yet though has it? And were longer trains not the ultimate aspiration? The LM service offer did appear to tread water for quite a few years towards the end with lack of new services, with the main strength being the free WiFi and entertainment offer, and ultra low advances, which afaik are still available now?

Perhaps bright marketing appealed but surely this doesn't outweigh longer trains, newer trains, new routes and connectivity and new frequencies?

I would say though that one of the biggest successes was project 110mph on the Trent Valley Line. If that hadn't happened we have no idea how things would be along that route today and in the future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So basically you're suggesting that was bargain basement type operation in the way Megabus can be perceived? Did everyone get a seat or are longer trains more of a desire from commuters and more general travelers? Longer trains and new trains without drastic price increases sounds like a win win to me.

"Cheap and cheerful" was the image they were going for, and I think it worked pretty well for them. Marketing to commuters wasn't really there, but they are a captive market anyway so there's little point.

On board it wasn't that cheerful. It's off-peak that you get most overcrowding - they have matched peak capacity to demand surprisingly well if you're willing to avoid a few problem trains.

 

[paddy1]

A shame if Virgin cease to operate on the West Coast. They raised the bar on first class rail travel in the UK with complimentary meals and alcohol, forcing East Coast to up their game in first, as well as doing their best to get longer trains on the WCML with Pendolinos being extended from 8/9 car up to 11 cars. It beggars belief that when First initially won the WCML franchise that they were proposing only 6 car Pendolinos on Birmigham - Scotland when you see how busy the 9/11 car trains are now on that route.

If Virgin go, I can't see any of the possible new franchisees maintaining the same first offer in first class, which will mean there will no longer any incentive for the ECML operator to match that of Virgin, and WCML first class will become the same as all the others. Can't see all the WCML first class lounges surviving either.

On the other hand, am pleased to see the back Of Stagecoach on the MML and being crammed into 4 or 5 car Meridians on busy long distance routes as well as their spartan Sunday service on the MML.

 

[pt_mad]

"Cheap and cheerful" was the image they were going for, and I think it worked pretty well for them. Marketing to commuters wasn't really there, but they are a captive market anyway so there's little point.

On board it wasn't that cheerful. It's off-peak that you get most overcrowding - they have matched peak capacity to demand surprisingly well if you're willing to avoid a few problem trains.

So if the new brand isn't coming over as cheap and cheerful, maybe that's not what they're going for? Especially if they're lengthening and refurbishing trains and bringing in new trains and longer distance routes? Perhaps they wish to be perceived as more serious like how Greater Anglia is?

 

[pt_mad]

A shame if Virgin cease to operate on the West Coast. They raised the bar on first class rail travel in the UK with complimentary meals and alcohol, forcing East Coast to up their game in first, as well as doing their best to get longer trains on the WCML with Pendolinos being extended from 8/9 car up to 11 cars. It beggars belief that when First initially won the WCML franchise that they were proposing only 6 car Pendolinos on Birmigham - Scotland when you see how busy the 9/11 car trains are now on that route.

If Virgin go, I can't see any of the possible new franchisees maintaining the same first offer in first class, which will mean there will no longer any incentive for the ECML operator to match that of Virgin, and WCML first class will become the same as all the others.

On the other hand, am pleased to see the back Of Stagecoach on the MML and being crammed into 4 or 5 car Meridians on busy long distance routes as well as their spartan Sunday service on the MML.

Regards first class though, First on the face of it would seem perfectly capable of a decent offering. They do run Pullman dining trains on GWR after all.