Stagecoach places £97million orders for new vehicles

[TheGrandWazoo]

Looking at what a Mercedes Benz Sprinter City looks like on Google I'd probably give it 5 years absolute max before they're completely knackered

That's exactly what people said about the first generation minibuses in 1984-6 and they lasted double or longer.

 

[Surreyman]

Looking at what a Mercedes Benz Sprinter City looks like on Google I'd probably give it 5 years absolute max before they're completely knackered

Might just be that Officially or Unofficially, thats all they are expecting!
I wonder how the Capital outlay/Depreciation/Maintenance costs compare re Merc' Sprinter City versus an Optare Solo?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Is the E400City available for operators outside of London? If so I'm surprised that Stagecoach haven't placed any orders for it...

 

[Andyh82]

Is the E400City available for operators outside of London? If so I'm surprised that Stagecoach haven't placed any orders for it...

Yes Blackpool Transport have purchased some for delivery this summer.

 

[Observer]

But it's interesting that Stagecoach bought Scania / E400 over the ADL complete 400s for inter urban work, as complete E400s are not up to the job?

Stagecoach ordered Scanias in general to replace the MAN option they used to go for due to reliability and warranty problems, and also as the ADL products required the usage of AdBlue due to SCR engines, MAN and Scania use EGR and therefore no AdBlue is required.

 

[317 forever]

Here's a few thoughts: -
1. Capital outlay control in uncertain economic times.
2. DDA deadline, i.e this years order heavily weighted to D/decks, which cost more than S/decks(This is a 'one-off').
3. Average age and make up of Existing fleet, it is now fairly modern and increasingly standardised, i.e oldest Darts are '53 reg.
4. Older vehicles are lasting longer, there seems to be no urgency to replace '51, '02, '52, '03 Solos for instance.
5. Future Franchising issues, if for example Greater Manchester put all routes in GM out to tender, S/C might want to lease vehicles as per London.

Continuing from point 5, the Buses Bill could allow more franchising or other developments that could encourage some strategic withdrawals by Stagecoach.

 

[overthewater]

At least we have some information has come out from around the net.

18: E4000MMC are going to Glasgow for Cumbernauld routes
8: E400MMCs (10526-10533) are due in Aberdeen for the Jet 727 service.

 

[pompeyfan]

Some E200s are due for Winchester P&R, while about 20 are due for Portsmouth route 23, which may well be 'gold' standard.

Another reason for stagecoach ditching Scania and MAN is that they're both part of VW group, and so were caught up in last years emission boo boo.

 

[overthewater]

I doubt that is the reason, its more likely its because the Scania are heavy weight

 

[d1672]

Hi,

I read in another group that there are currently no Scanias on order because the fans on a Scania are belt driven and Stagecoach wanted electric driven fans. I don't know enough about this to comment further.

I also understand that 10510 and 10511 at least have been delivered to Kilmarnock for preparation work before going to Cumbernauld. Work at Cumbernauld depot appears to have been completed ready to receive the Blochairn fleet.

Thomas

 

[GaryMcEwan]

10512 is also at Kilmarnock. I'm presuming the E400 Scania's are heading back down?

Does anyone know if anything is getting delivered at Perth?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Either its a latecomer or Stagecoach are ordering Scania as 15263 has been delivered to Thanet...

 

[LAIRA]

15263 is one of an order for 30 for South East. This is the final buses to be delivered from last years order.

 

[the101]

Another reason for stagecoach ditching Scania and MAN is that they're both part of VW group, and so were caught up in last years emission boo boo.

Stagecoach 'ditched' MAN some years ago and well before the VW emissions scandal because MAN's product of the time was poor, doesn't work in buses and generates huge maintenance and repair bills. It is not the only operator to have realised that, as the difficulty with which various MAN-engined Optares are sold on the used market shows.

That MAN and Scania are both owned by VW (for now) is incidental.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Which is what we have now with the E400H City: good styling with none of the cost of a bespoke bus.

Indeed. Not wishing to be a killjoy but we're veering back onto the Borismaster subject (yet again) when the topic is about Stagey's new orders.

Any further news on disposition? Busways must be due some new deckers?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Indeed. Not wishing to be a killjoy but we're veering back onto the Borismaster subject (yet again) when the topic is about Stagey's new orders.

And they haven't even ordered any E400H City buses for me to claim that I was on topic really

Any further news on disposition? Busways must be due some new deckers?

Nothing mentioned. I'm not holding my breath; everything up here is DDA compliant now. Best I can see happening is a bit of a cascade; there's been a Scania E400 up here on trial from Manchester.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

And they haven't even ordered any E400H City buses for me to claim that I was on topic really



Nothing mentioned. I'm not holding my breath; everything up here is DDA compliant now. Best I can see happening is a bit of a cascade; there's been a Scania E400 up here on trial from Manchester.

Topicness wasn't directed at anyone specifically

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is what we have now with the E400H City: good styling with none of the cost of a bespoke bus.

Agreed, that's a very nice looking vehicle.

 

[plcd1]

It could well be that large numbers of NB4Ls will flood the market within two to three years following next month's mayoral elections, especially if, as generally expected, Sadiq Khan wins. I am sure he will not be as punitive as Boris was with the bendybuses, because new contracts will have to be struck with the operators who will once again have to provide the requisite buses themselves. I cannot imagine any of the big companies wanting secondhand NB4Ls at any price: that second staircase is a huge millstone, even if you ditched the rear (and possibly middle) door. Malta and Sri Lanka will also say thanks, but no thanks. The wily Chinese might just ship them to Hong Kong, though, if they were being virtually given away, which I'm sure will be the case.

This will not happen. No Mayoral candiate is advocating scrapping the NB4Ls. The write off cost would be ridiculous at a time when the TfL budget will be under ever increasing pressure (regardless of who is elected). Boris has bequeathed his successor a poor settlement and no great financial wriggle room. The days of mass withdrawal of certain bus types has gone and that's to the overall good of the public purse. And I say that as someone who can't stand the NB4L.

The NB4L's business case is predicated on a 14 year service life but I've seen a hint that this may be extended to 20 years (heaven help us). The major issue facing London is air quality and it is that coupled with testing of "all electric" buses that may affect existing bus fleets. I doubt, though, that any fleet cascades out of London will have much impact on large bus group orders. All the key players are now of the view that modified, older London spec buses aren't suitable for remunerative commercial routes in their key markets. Hence the purchase of ADL MMCs, Volvo B5s and Streetdecks by Stagecoach, First, Go Ahead and Arriva. Once the DDA deadline and the Buses Bill (and its aftermath) are out of the way then the market for new buses outside London should stabilise.

 

[Tetchytyke]

TAll the key players are now of the view that modified, older London spec buses aren't suitable for remunerative commercial routes in their key markets.

Arriva haven't got that memo, they're "refurbishing" plenty of ex-London deckers and shipping them up here. You can't polish a turd but you can stick fake leather seats in it and call it a premium service.

Stagecoach tend to get their London stuff on lease these days. Does anyone know if the new Stagecoach London order is all leased too, given that it is listed separately on the press release?

 

[plcd1]

Arriva haven't got that memo, they're "refurbishing" plenty of ex-London deckers and shipping them up here. You can't polish a turd but you can stick fake leather seats in it and call it a premium service.

Stagecoach tend to get their London stuff on lease these days. Does anyone know if the new Stagecoach London order is all leased too, given that it is listed separately on the press release?

True for the North East and yes a lot of ex London stuff has headed that way. Provides a nice nostalgia trip if I venture north.

I believe Stagecoach stated, when they bought the London businesses back, that all new vehicles would be leased as they had no intention of cascading back into provincial fleets when use in London came to an end. I can't confirm if that is what they have actually done.

 

[mbonwick]

The new London order will be leased, yes.

It's not so much the case that newer ex-London can't be converted to single door - more that it is not cost-effective for operators to do in house. With an ALX400 you replace a sheet of plywood flooring at the door with a ramp and essentially the reverse at the centre door. Unfortunately (all in the name of weight reduction!) the E400 is missing a decent chuck of metal framing at the front door to accept a retrofit ramp, and a different floor bracing arrangement is needed for the ex-centre doors.

 

[bb21]

The discussion on Borismasters are now here. Anything related to Stagecoach operations in London and nationwide have remained. It is not an exact science so please accept my apologies if I got some posts wrong.

Borismaster discussions give me, and some others I'm sure, a headache as we have been through them over and over again, but if people wish to discuss those buses, you can still do so in its own thread.

 

[Stan Drews]

Any further news on disposition? Busways must be due some new deckers?

I believe the 62/63 may be due some new tackle this year.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do Mercedes Benz Sprinter City buses allow standing at all?

 

[overthewater]

This just seems to be a bit confusing, Stagecoach have brought a new fleet for the Coasthopper route. https://www.flickr.com/photos/122507681@N02/26443262201/in/photostream/

Yet during winter the route is paid for by the council and the contract went to lynxbus.

 

[Observer]

Do Mercedes Benz Sprinter City buses allow standing at all?

16 seated, 4 standees = 22 in capacity.

 

[Surreyman]

Arriva haven't got that memo, they're "refurbishing" plenty of ex-London deckers and shipping them up here. You can't polish a turd but you can stick fake leather seats in it and call it a premium service.

Stagecoach tend to get their London stuff on lease these days. Does anyone know if the new Stagecoach London order is all leased too, given that it is listed separately on the press release?

Rumours around on the 'Net that Arrivas 2016/17 order has been cancelled or at least 'deferred' due to the DB group having a financial panic attack and reviewing all its future operations.
No idea how much of this is solid fact/rumour/Chinese whispers.
Arriva don't have that many 'Deckers to replace and could meet the DDA deadline by cascading from London or upgrading older low floor 'deckers.

 

[Robertj21a]

Rumours around on the 'Net that Arrivas 2016/17 order has been cancelled or at least 'deferred' due to the DB group having a financial panic attack and reviewing all its future operations.
No idea how much of this is solid fact/rumour/Chinese whispers.
Arriva don't have that many 'Deckers to replace and could meet the DDA deadline by cascading from London or upgrading older low floor 'deckers.

I think it's probably more accurate to say that they were deferred, slightly, while some management responsibilities and divisional areas were realigned.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Rumours around on the 'Net that Arrivas 2016/17 order has been cancelled or at least 'deferred' due to the DB group having a financial panic attack and reviewing all its future operations.

Yeah, it's largely true, although the north east (Northumberland, Durham County and Tees and District) was not scheduled to have any new buses this year anyway.

I'm surprised Arriva haven't used cherished plates to disguise just how old the Max refurbs are; even Go-Ahead are using cherished plates on their older double deckers now.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yeah, it's largely true, although the north east (Northumberland, Durham County and Tees and District) was not scheduled to have any new buses this year anyway.

I'm surprised Arriva haven't used cherished plates to disguise just how old the Max refurbs are; even Go-Ahead are using cherished plates on their older double deckers now.

To be fair, the Arriva NE fleets have benefited from a lot of investment over the last few years (since the barren last days of the Steve Noble era). In nine years, they've had 70 odd Solos, over 120 Pulsars, over 50 Streetlites, 40 e400s, 20 plus DB300s, two dozen hybrid/gas buses and the 20 Turkish Alights as well as various pretty modern cascades and some dealer stock.

The problem is that there was a lot of very old fleet and arguably getting in some 2002-2006 vintage stuff helps balance out the age profile a bit when they weren't getting much new at the time