Stagecoach places £97million orders for new vehicles

[BestWestern]

16 seated, 4 standees = 22 in capacity.

Two on the roof then!?

 

[83G/84D]

STAGECOACH ORDERS 2016 - 2017.

10511 - 10525 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Glasgow.
10526 - 10533 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Aberdeen.
10534 - 10551 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Gillmoss.
10552 - 10563 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Kendal.
10564 - 10577 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Gillmoss.
10578 - 10630 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Stockport.
10631 - 10654 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Walkergate.
10655 - 10663 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Barnsley.
10664 - 10666 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Worksop.
10667 - 10687 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Oxford.
10688 - 10697 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Exeter.
10698 - 10700 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Winchester.
10701 - 10725 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Folkestone.
10726 - 10733 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Leamington.
10734 - 10748 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Hull.
10749 - 10760 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Chester?
10761 - 10778 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Aldershot.
10779 - 10788 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Oxford.
All the above are 10.9m Euro 6 variants.

12364 - 12401 ADL Enviro 400H MMC for Plumstead.
26041 - 26049 ADL Enviro 200 MMC for Winchester.
26050 - 26062 ADL Enviro 200 MMC for Chester.
26063 - 26080 ADL Enviro 200 MMC for Slatyford.
26081 - 26087 ADL Enviro 200 MMC for Chesterfield.
26088 - 26111 ADL Enviro 200 MMC for Porth.
All the above are 11.9m variants.

36609 - 36621 ADL Enviro 200 MMC 10.5m for Bromley.

37431 - 37439 ADL Enviro 200 MMC for Norfolk Green.
37440 - 37444 ADL Enviro 200 MMC for Rock Ferry.
All the above are 10.9m variants.

44001 - 44030 Mercedes Benz Sprinter City 45 for ?
48031 - 48036 Optare Solo M990 SL for Norfolk Green.
54277 - 54283 Volvo B11R 15m for Rugby.
54284 Volvo B11R 13.8m for East Scotland.
54331 - 54333 Volvo B11R 15m for East Scotland.
54334 - 54441 Volvo B11R 15m for West Scotland.

Source:- British Bus Publishing 2016 Stagecoach bus handbook.

 

[DaveHarries]

10688 - 10697 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Exeter.

Wonder what route these will end up on? Wonder if, now that the route is - I believe - a 'Gold' route, they could be gold-branded for the X46. Other candidates would be the routes between Exeter and Tiverton (Service 1) and Exeter to Barnstaple I would guess.

26088 - 26111 ADL Enviro 200 MMC for Porth.

Will be interested to see what route these appear on. The 120 & 121 (Caerphilly - Blaencwm / Blaenrhondda) are already operated, I believe, with '63' plate Enviro200s and I shouldn't think that an 11.2m single-decker would fit along the route of the 150 (Pontypridd - Porth - Tonyrefail - Gilfach Goch) unless the 150 was rerouted so as not to serve Glynfach Road, Cross Street and Gawn Bedu but you probably wouldn't get an Enviro200 around the Rhiwgarn section of route either.Likely candidate routes for these would, I think, be the X32 / 132.

Dave

 

[henairs]

Wonder what route these will end up on? Wonder if, now that the route is - I believe - a 'Gold' route, they could be gold-branded for the X46. Other candidates would be the routes between Exeter and Tiverton (Service 1) and Exeter to Barnstaple I would guess.


Will be interested to see what route these appear on. The 120 & 121 (Caerphilly - Blaencwm / Blaenrhondda) are already operated, I believe, with '63' plate Enviro200s and I shouldn't think that an 11.2m single-decker would fit along the route of the 150 (Pontypridd - Porth - Tonyrefail - Gilfach Goch) unless the 150 was rerouted so as not to serve Glynfach Road, Cross Street and Gawn Bedu but you probably wouldn't get an Enviro200 around the Rhiwgarn section of route either.Likely candidate routes for these would, I think, be the X32 / 132.

Dave

Hi Dave,
X46 I think only uses 2 vehicles on diagram and is a Torquay Depot working. I did read a short while back that the Tiverton routes 1,1A, 1B and 55 could receive new vehicles later this year. These are mainly the preserve of 04 Tridents which are some of the oldest Deckers in the present fleet.
Barnstaple duties on 5s, 6s and 155/55 are increasingly being operated by Scania E400s as well as the 4 Dennis E400s recently transferred up to there from Exeter/Torquay.
Having travelled on the new MMCs on the Red Park&Ride route must say they are a lovely ride and hopefully will give many years of useful service.
Cheers, Mike

 

[fgwrich]

STAGECOACH ORDERS 2016 - 2017.

10698 - 10700 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Winchester.

10761 - 10778 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Aldershot.

These two I'm a little surprised at, Winchester I understood was due some new vehicles anyway but 2 MMC 400s does seem a little surprising - they gained some E400s from Sheffield / Manc last year. But a batch for Aldershot - What in the Aldershot area now requires newer deckers I wonder?

 

[AB93]

These two I'm a little surprised at, Winchester I understood was due some new vehicles anyway but 2 MMC 400s does seem a little surprising - they gained some E400s from Sheffield / Manc last year. But a batch for Aldershot - What in the Aldershot area now requires newer deckers I wonder?

Presumably, it'll have be a conversion of the Gold 1 to decker operation.

Nothing else would warrant new deckers!

 

[221129]

Wonder what route these will end up on? Wonder if, now that the route is - I believe - a 'Gold' route, they could be gold-branded for the X46. Other candidates would be the routes between Exeter and Tiverton (Service 1) and Exeter to Barnstaple I would guess.

Dave

Rumblings coming out of Exeter would seem to suggest the 1/A/B as being the most likely route.

 

[KendalKing]

These two I'm a little surprised at, Winchester I understood was due some new vehicles anyway but 2 MMC 400s

Actually its three 10698, 10699 and 10700.

But a batch for Aldershot - What in the Aldershot area now requires newer deckers I wonder?

According to the latest fleet allocation card, there are 13 Double Deckers allocated to Aldershot, 7 of which are non-DDA.

 

[Robertj21a]

Actually its three 10698, 10699 and 10700.




According to the latest fleet allocation card, there are 13 Double Deckers allocated to Aldershot, 7 of which are non-DDA.

But can still be deceptive if, for instance, they use them for closed-contracts, schools etc.

 

[507021]

10749 - 10760 ADL Enviro 400 MMC for Chester

These are for Cheltenham, not Chester.

 

[DaveHarries]

These are for Cheltenham, not Chester.

Hmmm sounds interesting. I guess the 10 and 94 would be candidates but they had new vehicles not very long ago.

Dave

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Hmmm sounds interesting. I guess the 10 and 94 would be candidates but they had new vehicles not very long ago.

Dave

The 94 was in 2009 - probably the most likely destination

 

[Blindtraveler]

I assume the coaches for East Scotland are to see off the last of the B7s? A bit sad not to see any Scanias this time as these are in my mind far better suited to mid or longer distance work pelting up motorways and duel carrageways but maybe whatever spat theyr having will sort itself?
Ultimateley I think itl come back to bite them as the all ADL deckers may I fear not cope to well on faster work

As for the sprinters, Highlands/Orkney???????

 

[pompeyfan]

A thought. With everyone (including First) suddenly turning to ADL, what are the chances that the quality of work will suffer with such large orders? Reviews or ADL products tend to be very hit and miss.

 

[Rapidash]

Rumblings coming out of Exeter would seem to suggest the 1/A/B as being the most likely route.

Unlikely to be new buses on the 1, I'd have thought. The route going into Cullompton is highly prone to tree bashes, wall scratches and mud bank reversel twangs. Would anyone put a brand spanking bus through that?

 

[jp4712]

A thought. With everyone (including First) suddenly turning to ADL, what are the chances that the quality of work will suffer with such large orders? Reviews or ADL products tend to be very hit and miss.

You may say that, but I had a very interesting conversation a few months ago with the Engineering Director of one of First's biggest operating units. He said that the Enviro 400s are very good, but Wright's build quality is the one that's suspect and he especially singled out the Streetlites as being "appalling".

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You may say that, but I had a very interesting conversation a few months ago with the Engineering Director of one of First's biggest operating units. He said that the Enviro 400s are very good, but Wright's build quality is the one that's suspect and he especially singled out the Streetlites as being "appalling".

I think the consensus is that ADL have really raised their game. That said, it is perhaps telling that First are only buying a handful of Streetlites despite their involvement in the Micro Hybrid development!

 

[Robertj21a]

I think the consensus is that ADL have really raised their game. That said, it is perhaps telling that First are only buying a handful of Streetlites despite their involvement in the Micro Hybrid development!

First have significantly reduced their Wrightbus orders in total, not just Streetlites. Given that this year is the deadline for double deckers under PSVAR it might have been expected that the Streetdeck order would have been somewhat higher.

 

[pompeyfan]

It's quite a turnaround then, because Wright products and bodies in general used to be very good, B10 bodies, B7s and so on from various ages are still in a good condition (at least in my local area) where as Darts and enviro's in general rattled etc. From speaking to a couple of people who are relatively high up in their respective companies, it seems that quality differs greatly depending on where they were built.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's quite a turnaround then, because Wright products and bodies in general used to be very good, B10 bodies, B7s and so on from various ages are still in a good condition (at least in my local area) where as Darts and enviro's in general rattled etc. From speaking to a couple of people who are relatively high up in their respective companies, it seems that quality differs greatly depending on where they were built.

I think many people would rate the Gemini body to be one of the best of all time. It seems that the Streetdeck and Streetlite ranges are not, currently, considered to be in the same league.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The thing is a bus like the Gemini 1 and Gemini 2 is a very good quality body, much better than the Enviro 400 which is much more brittle. However the Enviro 400 is lighter both in weight and on fuel, the problem is lightweight buses whilst being cheaper to run, are never the same build quality wise as the heavier vehicles.

There is a belief that ADL knew that the Gemini was a better built model than their own offerings, so didn't even try and take on Wright in those stakes. Instead they decided to focus on making their decker lighter, more fuel efficient and try and squeeze Wright on Price and that has been very successful.

When that happened people speculated that the operators would look more long term and would rather have a better built product that was more expensive than a cheaper bus that was not so hardwearing. That may well have been the case, but in reality it would never work out that way due to the ownership links between Stagecoach and ADL.

Stagecoach were always going to order large numbers of ADL vehicles and of course, it's competition generally have to follow suit by going for lightweight buses since otherwise they will get wiped out by ADL on price since ADL have a very strong position in the market, being both a chassis builder, a body builder and having links to the UK's biggest bus operator.

The reason Wright products are worse built is simple commercial reality - because of the way the market is, the older well built models simply too expensive to run and the ADL products are cheaper to run. If you had First with brand new original Gemini spec B9TL's and Stagecoach with ADL 400's, Stagecoach from a cost basis would knock First out of the water.

I completely agree that the Streetlites are crap, and the Eclipse is a much better bus, but the simple fact is again, the commercial reality is that any operator who runs an Eclipse full weight single decker vs an Enviro 200 is going to be much worse off from a cost base point of view. Even Mercedes these days are doing lower spec model Citaro's than ever before to retain market share.

 

[Robertj21a]

The thing is a bus like the Gemini 1 and Gemini 2 is a very good quality body, much better than the Enviro 400 which is much more brittle. However the Enviro 400 is lighter both in weight and on fuel, the problem is lightweight buses whilst being cheaper to run, are never the same build quality wise as the heavier vehicles.

There is a belief that ADL knew that the Gemini was a better built model than their own offerings, so didn't even try and take on Wright in those stakes. Instead they decided to focus on making their decker lighter, more fuel efficient and try and squeeze Wright on Price and that has been very successful.

When that happened people speculated that the operators would look more long term and would rather have a better built product that was more expensive than a cheaper bus that was not so hardwearing. That may well have been the case, but in reality it would never work out that way due to the ownership links between Stagecoach and ADL.

Stagecoach were always going to order large numbers of ADL vehicles and of course, it's competition generally have to follow suit by going for lightweight buses since otherwise they will get wiped out by ADL on price since ADL have a very strong position in the market, being both a chassis builder, a body builder and having links to the UK's biggest bus operator.

The reason Wright products are worse built is simple commercial reality - because of the way the market is, the older well built models simply too expensive to run and the ADL products are cheaper to run. If you had First with brand new original Gemini spec B9TL's and Stagecoach with ADL 400's, Stagecoach from a cost basis would knock First out of the water.

I completely agree that the Streetlites are crap, and the Eclipse is a much better bus, but the simple fact is again, the commercial reality is that any operator who runs an Eclipse full weight single decker vs an Enviro 200 is going to be much worse off from a cost base point of view. Even Mercedes these days are doing lower spec model Citaro's than ever before to retain market share.

Of course, Stagecoach on a cost basis would knock First out of the water anyway - that's just the proven quality of their management. The fact that they tend to buy ADL over, say, Volvo is an added cost benefit and the newer MMC ranges seem to have addressed some of the earlier quality issues.
Volvo, and partly therefore, Wrights, lost out when First emphasised their need for lighter, more fuel efficient, buses.

 

[baza585]

You may say that, but I had a very interesting conversation a few months ago with the Engineering Director of one of First's biggest operating units. He said that the Enviro 400s are very good, but Wright's build quality is the one that's suspect and he especially singled out the Streetlites as being "appalling".

The Euro 6 Merc engine in the Streetlite seems to have been a step backwards. Possibly great fuel economy but they seem temperamental compared to Euro 5 Cummins engine versions. Not sure why Wrights didn't opt for Cummins Euro 6 instead.

 

[Mikey C]

I recall that First were one of the drivers behind the Gemini 3 losing the large upper deck windows of the earlier models, to save weight

In London, Wrights certainly have no trouble selling the Gemini 3/Volvo B5LH hybrid, which has been very successful. Their integral Streetdeck is much rarer though.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Of course, Stagecoach on a cost basis would knock First out of the water anyway - that's just the proven quality of their management. The fact that they tend to buy ADL over, say, Volvo is an added cost benefit and the newer MMC ranges seem to have addressed some of the earlier quality issues.
Volvo, and partly therefore, Wrights, lost out when First emphasised their need for lighter, more fuel efficient, buses.

Clearly, the industry has swung bigtime into having more fuel efficient, lightweight vehicles. Arguably, that has been the Stagecoach way for some time and even Arriva to an extent and so it's perhaps the industry coming into their step?

That much is obvious with the orders for ADL and Wrightbus products and the development of much lighter models. Also, look how many Citaros and B8RLEs are being purchased?

I've been on a fair few Streetlites and have found them ok in the main. Certainly, the smaller examples are noticeably less assured in terms of ride quality. Not bad but, of course, no comparison with a Wright Eclipse. Not had the opportunity to try an e200mmc but found the e200 to be very variable in terms of build quality.

Recently have had the chance to try e400mmc in Exeter and Bristol. In the latter case, First also have Streetdecks, Geminis and e400s working in the city so a good place to compare. I thought the mmc was much better in terms of feel, build quality, ergonomics etc than all. The Gemini was next, then Streetdeck then original e400. All subjective I know, but it does feel that ADL really have raised the bar. Meanwhile, the Streetdeck seems flimsy in some respects.

However, it is fuel and reliability that is the main consideration for operators and if the Wright products are not performing as they should, then you can understand why people are looking at ADL more favourably than they did.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a passenger I don't really mind - Streetlites seem decent enough to me.

What they do need to do is to invest in research as to how to prevent rattly panels and grab poles. That needn't make the vehicle heavy, it just needs damping in the right places, and for operators to be bothered to maintain it properly. (Clue: shoving a bit of tissue paper into the gap or sticking it down with a sticky-backed weekly ticket wallet is not "maintaining it properly"), and only locking one of two of the locks on a ceiling panel so it ends up distorted is just lazy.

As usual, Stagey is ahead of the others at getting this kind of thing right, just like you almost never see one of their buses with a mismatching or dented side panel.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The shakes and rattles have far more to do with how a bus is maintained than the original build quality. You don't get the rattles on a Stagecoach E400 that you do on an Arriva one, for instance. I've always found the Arriva VDL Wrights to be far more rattly than the First Volvo ones.

That said, the Streetlite is a rubbish bus, the Arriva, Go-Ahead and First examples I've been on have all been very poor. I'd put internal build quality and "feel" at a level of the Temsa Avenue, truth be told. But it is obviously a cheap and economical bus, so the operators are prepared to put up with it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The shakes and rattles have far more to do with how a bus is maintained than the original build quality. You don't get the rattles on a Stagecoach E400 that you do on an Arriva one, for instance. I've always found the Arriva VDL Wrights to be far more rattly than the First Volvo ones.

That said, the Streetlite is a rubbish bus, the Arriva, Go-Ahead and First examples I've been on have all been very poor. I'd put internal build quality and "feel" at a level of the Temsa Avenue, truth be told. But it is obviously a cheap and economical bus, so the operators are prepared to put up with it.

That's the odd bit. I've been on some Stagecoach e400s that have been very poor (esp the early ones) and yet the few First ones of the same vintage are fine. The Arriva ones have been in the middle. Similarly, e200s for First and Stagecoach have been patchy.

However, I will agree that the Temsa Avenue is the worst new bus I think I've ever experienced. Was on one in the beautiful garden city of Redcar and the driver slammed on the anchors.... the rear most seat back detached itself from its velcro fastening (I kid you not) and shot along the aisle. The driver then leaving his cab to reattach it!! hock:

I've also had no real issue with the Pulsar (though after being on a Temsa, they were brilliant) whether that be on urban work (Teesside), cross country work (Durham to Crook) or even high speed running (Bangor to Llandudno). Not as good as an Eclipse but not bad.

That said, I've had the odd iffy Eclipse and the Solars that Go Ahead have seem very ropey so perhaps it is maintenance at times?

 

[the101]

The Euro 6 Merc engine in the Streetlite seems to have been a step backwards. Possibly great fuel economy but they seem temperamental compared to Euro 5 Cummins engine versions. Not sure why Wrights didn't opt for Cummins Euro 6 instead.

Wrightbus are/were also pursuing a Cummins offering at Euro 6 in the StreetLite, but the Daimler engine has proved to be slightly more fuel efficient than the Cummins. Using the Daimler may also have had something to do with Wrights originally having planned to use Daimler's automated manual gearbox in the StreetLite; I don't know if this is still the plan, but clearly a Daimler 'box is only going to work with a Daimler engine, and not a Cummins.

The only such option for a Cummins-engined StreetLite would be an AS-Tronic Lite, and given the reputation that has shaped for itself in the Enviro200s that received it Wrights probably decided that staying as far away from it as possible was a shrewd move.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In London, Wrights certainly have no trouble selling the Gemini 3/Volvo B5LH hybrid, which has been very successful. Their integral Streetdeck is much rarer though.

Yes, but that's not surprising given that Wrights will not build a hybrid StreetDeck. You may see more StreetDecks in London whenever the move to electric double-deckers begins in earnest.

 

[Mikey C]

Clearly, the industry has swung bigtime into having more fuel efficient, lightweight vehicles. Arguably, that has been the Stagecoach way for some time and even Arriva to an extent and so it's perhaps the industry coming into their step?

That much is obvious with the orders for ADL and Wrightbus products and the development of much lighter models. Also, look how many Citaros and B8RLEs are being purchased?

I've been on a fair few Streetlites and have found them ok in the main. Certainly, the smaller examples are noticeably less assured in terms of ride quality. Not bad but, of course, no comparison with a Wright Eclipse. Not had the opportunity to try an e200mmc but found the e200 to be very variable in terms of build quality.

Recently have had the chance to try e400mmc in Exeter and Bristol. In the latter case, First also have Streetdecks, Geminis and e400s working in the city so a good place to compare. I thought the mmc was much better in terms of feel, build quality, ergonomics etc than all. The Gemini was next, then Streetdeck then original e400. All subjective I know, but it does feel that ADL really have raised the bar. Meanwhile, the Streetdeck seems flimsy in some respects.

However, it is fuel and reliability that is the main consideration for operators and if the Wright products are not performing as they should, then you can understand why people are looking at ADL more favourably than they did.

Arriva has used lightweight vehicles for a long time, they are the main user of the lightweight VDL SB200 with Wrights Pulsar bodywork