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Standard to First Excess Tickets

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premier01

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I am posting this following on from original post about over-distance excess fares-the situation that I require clarification about is excessing Standard to First Class on Return Tickets but only in oner direction:-

Example

Preston to Leeds-any permitted route Anytime Return: £31.70-this is the ticket that was purchased.

Upgrade to First Class on outward journey only:-

Excess charged- £13.60 incorrect

Correct process:-

'Standard Anytime Return – simply pay the difference between the Standard and First Class Anytime Single fare'

Therefore correct excess should have been:-

Anytime Single Preston to Leeds-Any Permitted Route-Standard- £21.20
Anytime Single Preston to Leeds-Any Permitted Route-First- £29.50

The difference between these fares is £29.50 - £21.20 = £8.30

I have been incorrectly charged on many journeys-I have checked this with National Rail Enquiries, Virgin Trains and TPE and they all backed this up but that was following 10 E-mails, 1 hour of phone calls and a letter of complaint to Virgin who issued this particular ticket as they manage the ticket sales at Preston Station. It took 4 months to get a resolution to this and a further 10 weeks to get a refund from Virgin Trains-they issued a £10 voucher although the refund should have been £5.30-this was for all the inconvenience even though it was mainly cuased by TPE Customer Relations.

I managed to get the actual process documented in the FRPP copied by a Team Manager at Manchester Piccadilliy on a sperate journey although he was adamant that the original excess was correct until he checked the FRPP-he apologised and said taht it used to be half the difference between the Standard and First Class Anytime Retun prices-he stamped the document and I enclosed this in the letter to Virgin Trains.

I wouldn't like to guess how many passengers are incorrectly charged on this basis-it may seem like an unusual excess but if you think about the number of people who upgrade to First Class at the invitation of the train manager-not weekend upgrades-particulraly if the train us busy that get charged incorrectly based on the old process.

The key point here is that I want to know how to tell the ticket sales staff the correct process-I try and show the FRPP information but don't always have that-it seems that the problem is with the system-the team manager at Manchester Piccadilly showed me on the system-I think it is called Tribute-and they basically choose the Return Fare and this charges the incorrect price-should they select the Standard Anytime Single then upgarde this to First Class then issue the excess ticket which should be valid on the train.

I tried this on a journey from Preston to Manchester Airport on TPE Train and tehy tried to charge me £10 which is the difference between the Anytime Standard Return and the Anytime First Return!-not having the FRPP information I rejected the offer and sat in Standard for that hourney-but I shouldn't have needed to do that.

The question could be why would you require this-there are several reasons-apart from having the option it is encouraged on the National Rail 'Upgrade to First Class' page and also I travel First Class on business on journeys over 200 miles-if I want to travel First Class to Leeds for example I need to pay the excess and I probably only want to do this on the outward journey where the trains are busy and you are in need of refershments more than on the return journey.
 
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glynn80

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Example

Preston to Leeds-any permitted route Anytime Return: £31.70-this is the ticket that was purchased.

Upgrade to First Class on outward journey only:-

Excess charged- £13.60 incorrect

Correct process:-

'Standard Anytime Return – simply pay the difference between the Standard and First Class Anytime Single fare'

Therefore correct excess should have been:-

Anytime Single Preston to Leeds-Any Permitted Route-Standard- £21.20
Anytime Single Preston to Leeds-Any Permitted Route-First- £29.50

The difference between these fares is £29.50 - £21.20 = £8.30

I am unsure where you have got the above figures from (are they discounted or are old prices?), but the prices listed in the FRPP are as follows:

rte Any Permitted

FOR - 68.00
FDS - 35.80
SOR - 33.60
SDS - 28.50


The correct excess by my calculations would be £7.30 (35.80-28.50) for excessing a Standard Anytime Single, £34.40 for (68.00-33.60) for excessing both portions of a Standard Anytime Return or finally £7.30 again which is the difference again between the Standard and First Class singles (See below for explanation).

I managed to get the actual process documented in the FRPP copied by a Team Manager at Manchester Piccadilliy on a sperate journey although he was adamant that the original excess was correct until he checked the FRPP-he apologised and said taht it used to be half the difference between the Standard and First Class Anytime Retun prices-he stamped the document and I enclosed this in the letter to Virgin Trains.

This is not what is stated within the FRPP, it is close but not identical:

FRPP said:
The Excess Fare to charge when there was “no opportunity to buy” before boarding the train

Transfer to First Class accommodation

National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 39, allows a customer holding a ticket for travel in Standard accommodation to travel in First Class, on payment of an Excess fare. General principles for Excess fares are:

Return tickets - change of class in one direction

One of the following options, according to the ticket type held:

· Anytime/ Anytime Day Return = difference between the equivalent Standard and First Class Single fares;

· Off-Peak/Off-Peak Day, Super Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Day = difference between the fare paid and the Standard Return plus the difference between the Standard Single and the First Class Single fare for the same route. If cheaper, the First Class Single fare.

· Advance = difference to First Class Return plus £10 administration fee.

The FRPP states the excess fare to be paid is the difference between the equivalent Standard and First Class Single fares. Now usually the single equivalent of the Anytime Return is approximately half price (effectively making it half the difference), but the multiplier from single to return is not always set at 2.

The key point here is that I want to know how to tell the ticket sales staff the correct process-I try and show the FRPP information but don't always have that-it seems that the problem is with the system-the team manager at Manchester Piccadilly showed me on the system-I think it is called Tribute-and they basically choose the Return Fare and this charges the incorrect price-should they select the Standard Anytime Single then upgarde this to First Class then issue the excess ticket which should be valid on the train.

Obviously it can be difficult to come over credible to ticket office staff who believe that the training they had is sufficient and they don't need a customer to explain to them how to do their job. The best way to go about it is to calmly explain that you have had a similar problem previously and if you just check the Excess Fares Procedures tab in the FRPP, this should corroborate what I have told you. If they continue to refuse, ask to speak to the team leader on duty.
 
Last edited:

janb

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16 Jul 2008
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669
I am unsure where you have got the above figures from (are they discounted or are old prices?), but the prices listed in the FRPP are as follows:

rte Any Permitted

FOR - 68.00
FDS - 35.80
SOR - 33.60
SDS - 28.50

Are you looking at NFM 04 by mistake Glynn?

Just checked on STAR and the prices the op gave are correct.
 

premier01

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17 Aug 2009
Messages
459
Thanks-so basically the £8.30 that I suggest that I should have been charged is correct then.

The issue with the ticket sales process is the system-are you saying that the FRPP documents the correct process i.e. how to correctly excess the ticket on the system and issue the excess ticket-the usual reply is 'how can I excess a Single Ticket when you have a Return Ticket' as you have said half the difference bewteen the Standard and Fist Class Return price for an upgrade is usually similar to the difference between the Standard and Fisrt Class Single Ticket prices however in the case of Preston to Leeds you pay £5.30 more if the incorrect process is used to excess the ticket-on longer journeys it could be more that is incorrectly charged-not sure about the process if you are requesting this on board the train-does the 'you are tarvelling without a valid ticket' rule overwrite this process as with the over-distance excess fares or can an excess be requested on the train
 

Solent&Wessex

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The upgrade process is all a bit of a mess in my view. I suspect the reason for some of the errors is down to a) poor / incorrect training and b) the ticketing machines used. For example, doing an XS fare as per the correct procedure on an Avantix machine is a right time consuming job, and very fiddly. If you do it the way I was originally taught, then you end up with the incorrect XS fare.

Take this example, all methodology is based on Avantix use:

Firstly, I was taught the following:

a) Passenger holds a SDS from LDS to MAN and wishes to upgrade to 1st Class for the whole journey. (Simple solution, the XS is the difference between SDS and FDS)

b) Passenger holds the outward portion of a SOR from YRK to MIA and wishes to upgrade throughout. (Again, relatively simple, find FOR fare for the journey, Choose XS Std to 1st, enter original ticket value, choose Direction Outward. The XS calculated will be half the difference between the SOR and FOR).

c) Passenger holds the return portion of a SVR from CTR to LDS, and wishes to upgrade between LDS and MAN only, as there is no 1st Class between MAN and CTR. This is slightly more complicated. (Put in MAN to LDS. Find SVR fare, remember the fare. Find FOR fare. Choose XS Std to 1st. Enter the value of the SVR MAN to LDS fare. Choose Direction Return. The XS should then be half the difference between the SVR and FOR for the MAN to LDS fare). The logic behind the calculation is this. Passenger is only upgrading for part of the journey, so using the value on his ticket would generate and incorrect XS unless upgrading throughout - which there is no point as there is no 1st Class MAN to CTR. It is for the RTN part of the journey, so should enter MAN to LDS rather than LDS to MAN, even though that is what is being done, and choose the SVR between MAN and LDS for the original ticket value as that is the ticket type held by the passenger.


There is some discepancy between what I have been taught and the details in the fares manual, as regards XS fares to charge for one direction only.

The fares manual says :

Return tickets - change of class in one direction

One of the following options, according to the ticket type held:

· Anytime/ Anytime Day Return = difference between the equivalent Standard and First Class Single fares;

· Off-Peak/Off-Peak Day, Super Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Day = difference between the fare paid and the Standard Return plus the difference between the Standard Single and the First Class Single fare for the same route. If cheaper, the First Class Single fare.

· Advance = difference to First Class Return plus £10 administration fee.


Now for my MAN - LDS example this would mean:

Fares Manual Method:
SVR = 17.40. SOR = 22.40 DIFF = 5.00
SDS = 15.90. FDS = 23.00 DIFF = 7.10
TOTAL XS TO PAY = 12.10

The method I was taught:
SVR = 17.40. FOR = 46.00 DIFF = 28.60
TOTAL XS TO PAY = 14.30

My method makes sense, as if they upgraded in both directions, they would pay 14.30 to XS each eay way (28.60) plus their original ticket value (17.40) which would mean they paid £46.00 - the FOR!

If you adopt the fares manual approach, when you XS in one direction you would pay £12.10. If you then came to XS on the way back, you would have already upgraded to the SOR, so only needed to pay the Difference between the SDS and FDS, which would give a total upgrade fee over both directions of £19.20, plus the original fare of £17.40 gives a total First Class fare over both directions of £36.60. Now if everyone realised that no-one would ever buy an FOR!

In addition, when using Avantix, it is virtually impossible to take the fares manual approach without taking up loads of time and issuing a variety of different tickets. It is quite complicated to do, and as such would lead to errors and problems. When doing an XS fare then the approach I was taught is what the Avantix machine will calculate without problem!

Hopefully this makes sense. I'm not sure who designed the XS fares rules, but I have looked at it for a number of journeys, and if someone wishes to travel first class both ways, it is very often cheaper (in many cases a LOT cheaper) to just buy a SVR and pay the XS fares in each direction individually - in the case of the MAN - LDS example, saving nearly £10!
 

glynn80

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The upgrade process is all a bit of a mess in my view. I suspect the reason for some of the errors is down to a) poor / incorrect training and b) the ticketing machines used. For example, doing an XS fare as per the correct procedure on an Avantix machine is a right time consuming job, and very fiddly. If you do it the way I was originally taught, then you end up with the incorrect XS fare.

In addition to the Routeing Guide, you'll now need to carry the FRPP on your phone!
 

Solent&Wessex

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In addition to the Routeing Guide, you'll now need to carry the FRPP on your phone!

I can access it via the internet on my phone, but it is a bit slow as phone reception over the route is fairly pants and keeps loosing signal!:-x
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In addition to the Routeing Guide, you'll now need to carry the FRPP on your phone!


Having said that, if it is possible to save so much money by following the correct procedure, it begs the questions why would anyone buy the First Class fare in the first place? Or - as I think - the XS fare procedures should be updated so that if you upgrade, you actually end up paying if you had brought a first class ticket in the first place. Thus you are not being penalised, but nor are you getting any reduced fares over those paying the full first class fare.
 

glynn80

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Having said that, if it is possible to save so much money by following the correct procedure, it begs the questions why would anyone buy the First Class fare in the first place? Or - as I think - the XS fare procedures should be updated so that if you upgrade, you actually end up paying if you had brought a first class ticket in the first place. Thus you are not being penalised, but nor are you getting any reduced fares over those paying the full first class fare.

This was a conundrum posed a while ago with regard to the cheapest single tickets available for many journeys being a return to the next station along the line and then to excess the outward portion of that return (at half the difference) to your intended destination (this anomaly occurs because most singles are only a few pence cheaper than returns).

For example if I wanted a single from Glasgow Queen Street to Fort William, the cheapest option was to purchase a Glasgow Queen Street to Charing Cross CDR and excess the outward portion only to Fort William.

Glasgow Queen Street to Charing Cross CDR: £1.20
Glasgow Queen Street to Fort William CDR: £23.70
Difference: £22.50
Half the Difference for Outward Portion only: £11.25

Total Single Ticket price from Glasgow Queen Street to Fort William: £1.20 + £11.25 = £12.45.

The cheapest generic single ticket available is the SDS at £23.50, so that is a £11.05 saving by excessing instead.
 
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Solent&Wessex

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Think I had a similar one the other week, which I sold on the train.

From memory it was Garforth to Preston.

Passenger wanted to go out via Manchester, and return via Burnley. It was cheaper to sell a GRF - PRE CDR Rte Burnley, then do an "XS Alt Rte Sgl" to go out via "Rte Any Permitted". The passenger seemed a bit confused, but I assured them it was all valid and legit, and saved them about £7 / £8 from memory.
 

MKB

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This is fascinating! Is there any a link to the FRPP that non-staff can see?

If I want to travel in standard class with one way off-peak and return in the peak, could I save money by buying an off-peak return and excessing the return portion only?
 

glynn80

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This is fascinating! Is there any a link to the FRPP that non-staff can see?

No the FRPP is password protected so that only staff can view it.

If there are specific sections you wish to view to clarify a particular ticketing issue, the majority of ticket offices will oblige. If the material is not sensitive to fraud they are also usually willing to print out the relevant page for you as well.
If I want to travel in standard class with one way off-peak and return in the peak, could I save money by buying an off-peak return and excessing the return portion only?

Unfortunately not, when excessing because "Travel is at a time or day for which tickets are not valid", the rules state:

FRPP said:
Travel at a time or day for which tickets are not valid

National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 12 allows customers to travel on a day or train on which their ticket is not valid, on payment of an Excess fare, providing there is no change to the originating and destination station shown on the ticket. The excess should be calculated as follows:

Return Tickets: Travel in one or both directions


Off-Peak / Off-Peak Day

Charge the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Return fare.



Super Off-Peak / Super Off-Peak Day

1) If Off-Peak are valid on the train

Charge the difference between the fare paid and the Off-Peak Return fare.

2) If Off-Peak are not valid on the train

Charge the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Return fare.​

So if excessing because the ticket you have is not valid at the time you are travelling, you must excess the entire ticket and cannot just excess a single portion.
 

johnb

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If the material is not sensitive to fraud they are also usually willing to print out the relevant page for you as well.

How can any of the material be sensitive to fraud? It might be sensitive to *getting a good deal at the TOCs' expense based on following their own rules to the letter*, but that's not fraud.
 

glynn80

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How can any of the material be sensitive to fraud? It might be sensitive to *getting a good deal at the TOCs' expense based on following their own rules to the letter*, but that's not fraud.

Pretty easily.

One example is the procedures that relate to how to deal with customers who's tickets are not printing from the TVMs. These procedures are not water tight, so anyone with access to those procedures could exploit them for their own gain. There are simlar issues with the refund procedures.
 

ian13

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This was a conundrum posed a while ago with regard to the cheapest single tickets available for many journeys being a return to the next station along the line and then to excess the outward portion of that return (at half the difference) to your intended destination (this anomaly occurs because most singles are only a few pence cheaper than returns).

For example if I wanted a single from Glasgow Queen Street to Fort William, the cheapest option was to purchase a Glasgow Queen Street to Charing Cross CDR and excess the outward portion only to Fort William.

Glasgow Queen Street to Charing Cross CDR: £1.20
Glasgow Queen Street to Fort William CDR: £23.70
Difference: £22.50
Half the Difference for Outward Portion only: £11.25

Total Single Ticket price from Glasgow Queen Street to Fort William: £1.20 + £11.25 = £12.45.

The cheapest generic single ticket available is the SDS at £23.50, so that is a £11.05 saving by excessing instead.

A little off topic, but if you were to ask a ticket office to do this (on a different route) would they agree? (I know they have to sell you the ticket you ask for, but what about excesses?)
 

glynn80

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A little off topic, but if you were to ask a ticket office to do this (on a different route) would they agree? (I know they have to sell you the ticket you ask for, but what about excesses?)

I am unsure what the legal standing is on it, but your best bet to avoid confrontation would be to buy the first ticket, the return to the next station along the line, from one ticket office and then ask a separate ticket office for the excess.
 

premier01

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This is intersting-it seems that there is inconsistencey on th excess fare documentation-that is the same across all of the FRPP documentation.

I will only request the Standard to First Class excess at the station now as it seems that the problem is with training and the systems that are used by the conductors are inconsistent.

It shouldn't be a problem to work with the systems companies to make sure that the fares are calculated automatically without the staff having to remember 100's over rules while also trying to do other work at the same time.

I should be OK to request an excess on the train-here is an example of a recent situation where this applies:-

I have an Anytime Standard Return for Preston to Manchester Airport-I get on the train at Preston-there are no seats in Standard and everone is standing up-need to work on laptop-request excess to First Class for the Preston to Manchester Airport sector only.

This is what should happen:

the conductor enters the excess into the systmem-Standard to First Class excess on outward journey only-the system simply calculates the correct excess fare which is the difference between the Anytime Standard Single Ticket and the Anytime First Class ticket based on the FRPP etc-new ticket prints from system conductor is OK with this and customer is happy.

What actually happened-and would probably happen every time:-

request excess and the conductor spends about 3 mins messing about with the system and comes up with 'thats £10.50-do you want to take it'

I reply is that just for the outward journey-he says yes that's correct

it clearly isn't but I accept this as the train is very busy and have to stand all the way to Bolton before getting a seat-shoul'dnt have been a problem with issuing the correct excess for the journey to Manchester Airport.

In fact this should be the same for all excesses and other ticket purcahses.

What is the process for excessing tickets when boarding the train without the correct ticket where there was an oppurtunity to purchase the excess ticket at the station:-

there seems to be many options here that are very conflicting and although it depends on waht type of excess it should be a consistent process.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I have just looked at this on the Avantix. By doing what I (and no doubt others) was taught, the following occurs:

Find PRE - MIA FOR fare, which is £41.20. Select fare. Select Excess. Select Standard to First. Select direction Outward. Enter original ticket value (£21.60). Machine says XS is £10.30, which is half of the difference between the SOR which the passenger has, and the FOR which they want for this journey.

The correct method, which in this case isn't actually too difficult to do, is the difference between the FDS which is £20.60 and the SDS which is £15.60. Thus the correct XS is £5.

Which goes back to my earlier post as to why this is such a sham. In theory, in this case if you upgraded in both directions you would pay £20.60 SOR + £5 XS outward + £5 XS return = £30.60 Total Fare Paid, thus saving £19.40 on the actual First Class fare for that journey, which other people would have paid.

This, in my view, is totally wrong. If there really was "impartial retailing", then nobody would ever be sold a First Class ticket as they would be sold an SOR and then the XS fare on top.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, forgot to say:

The XS fares rules for transferring to First Class say that if there WAS an opportunity to buy before getting on board, for tickets other than season tickets or travelcards, then the passenger should be charged the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare for the journey. It could be argued that as the passenger has an SOR, then the appropriate fare is the FOR, so the £10.30 XS is actually correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Looking at the XS fares rules again, the rules relating to XS fares which state you should be charged the difference between the SDS and FDS only apply if there was NO opportunity to buy before boarding. Thus, joining at PRE, i think the £10.30 XS is actually correct as you had the opportunity to buy before boarding and thus the £5 XS I detailed above should not be available on board.

Having said that, I stand by my point that the XS fares should not allow you to end up paying less than the FOR if you XS in both directions.
 

Greenback

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I think the Excess system is complicated, strewn with errors and should be abolished!

I would argue that someone with a standard class ticket wishing to sit in First due to overcrowding, should only be able to do the following:

1. Upgrade the whole ticket, whether single or return tot he first class equivalent
2. Buy a new first class single (if it's cheaper than the upgrade)
3. Ask the conductoer for permission to use first class if they have a disability, or are elderly, pregnant etc not just to use a laptop)
4. Stay where they are!

Many of my local trains are overcrowded, absolutely crammed at peak times, but there is no option to go in First as the trains are standard class only!
 

janb

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Now for my MAN - LDS example this would mean:

Fares Manual Method:
SVR = 17.40. SOR = 22.40 DIFF = 5.00
SDS = 15.90. FDS = 23.00 DIFF = 7.10
TOTAL XS TO PAY = 12.10

The method I was taught:
SVR = 17.40. FOR = 46.00 DIFF = 28.60
TOTAL XS TO PAY = 14.30

Just tried this on STAR, it wants to charge £21.50.
 

Failed Unit

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I think the Excess system is complicated, strewn with errors and should be abolished!

I would argue that someone with a standard class ticket wishing to sit in First due to overcrowding, should only be able to do the following:

1. Upgrade the whole ticket, whether single or return tot he first class equivalent
2. Buy a new first class single (if it's cheaper than the upgrade)
3. Ask the conductoer for permission to use first class if they have a disability, or are elderly, pregnant etc not just to use a laptop)
4. Stay where they are!

Many of my local trains are overcrowded, absolutely crammed at peak times, but there is no option to go in First as the trains are standard class only!

I must admit I often used to upgrade when trains are short formed and never seemed to be charged the same fare twice.

I had a season ticket, so most of the time it was the difference between a SDS (day single) and FDS which seemed fair enough.

One gaurd told me that it could only be done at the booking office and let me off altogether as I was at my destination!
 

premier01

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OK-it does seem that the process was correct for the Preston to Manchester Airport example
I should be OK to request an excess on the train-here is an example of a recent situation where this applies:-

I have an Anytime Standard Return for Preston to Manchester Airport-I get on the train at Preston-there are no seats in Standard and everone is standing up-need to work on laptop-request excess to First Class for the Preston to Manchester Airport sector only.

This is what should happen:

the conductor enters the excess into the systmem-Standard to First Class excess on outward journey only-the system simply calculates the correct excess fare which is the difference between the Anytime Standard Single Ticket and the Anytime First Class ticket based on the FRPP etc-new ticket prints from system conductor is OK with this and customer is happy.

What actually happened-and would probably happen every time:-

request excess and the conductor spends about 3 mins messing about with the system and comes up with 'thats £10.50-do you want to take it'

I reply is that just for the outward journey-he says yes that's correct

it clearly isn't but I accept this as the train is very busy and have to stand all the way to Bolton before getting a seat-shoul'dnt have been a problem with issuing the correct excess for the journey to Manchester Airport.



The original example however was for excessing at ticket at the station and therefore the correct process wasn't followed by the ticket office

Example

Preston to Leeds-any permitted route Anytime Return: £31.70-this is the ticket that was purchased.

Upgrade to First Class on outward journey only:-

Excess charged- £13.60 incorrect

Correct process:-

'Standard Anytime Return – simply pay the difference between the Standard and First Class Anytime Single fare'

Therefore correct excess should have been:-

Anytime Single Preston to Leeds-Any Permitted Route-Standard- £21.20
Anytime Single Preston to Leeds-Any Permitted Route-First- £29.50

The difference between these fares is £29.50 - £21.20 = £8.30

I have been incorrectly charged on many journeys-I have checked this with National Rail Enquiries, Virgin Trains and TPE and they all backed this up but that was following 10 E-mails, 1 hour of phone calls and a letter of complaint to Virgin who issued this particular ticket as they manage the ticket sales at Preston Station. It took 4 months to get a resolution to this and a further 10 weeks to get a refund from Virgin Trains-they issued a £10 voucher although the refund should have been £5.30-this was for all the inconvenience even though it was mainly cuased by TPE Customer Relations.

Please can the correct FRPP process be posted for when there was an oppurtunity to purchase the ticket before boarding the train as I don't have this process.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
i have just looked at this on the avantix. By doing what i (and no doubt others) was taught, the following occurs:

Find pre - mia for fare, which is £41.20. Select fare. Select excess. Select standard to first. Select direction outward. Enter original ticket value (£21.60). Machine says xs is £10.30, which is half of the difference between the sor which the passenger has, and the for which they want for this journey.

The correct method, which in this case isn't actually too difficult to do, is the difference between the fds which is £20.60 and the sds which is £15.60. Thus the correct xs is £5.

Which goes back to my earlier post as to why this is such a sham. In theory, in this case if you upgraded in both directions you would pay £20.60 sor + £5 xs outward + £5 xs return = £30.60 total fare paid, thus saving £19.40 on the actual first class fare for that journey, which other people would have paid.

This, in my view, is totally wrong. If there really was "impartial retailing", then nobody would ever be sold a first class ticket as they would be sold an sor and then the xs fare on top.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
sorry, forgot to say:

The xs fares rules for transferring to first class say that if there was an opportunity to buy before getting on board, for tickets other than season tickets or travelcards, then the passenger should be charged the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare for the journey. It could be argued that as the passenger has an sor, then the appropriate fare is the for, so the £10.30 xs is actually correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
looking at the xs fares rules again, the rules relating to xs fares which state you should be charged the difference between the sds and fds only apply if there was no opportunity to buy before boarding. Thus, joining at pre, i think the £10.30 xs is actually correct as you had the opportunity to buy before boarding and thus the £5 xs i detailed above should not be available on board.

Having said that, i stand by my point that the xs fares should not allow you to end up paying less than the for if you xs in both directions.
ok
 
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premier01

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2009
Messages
459
Having said that, I stand by my point that the XS fares should not allow you to end up paying less than the FOR if you XS in both directions.


That is possibly correct but as that is the process then that is what should be follwed-it's swings and roundabouts with all these processes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I posted these at the beginning of this thread in post 2 (http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=341289&postcount=2).

I was looking for the process where there was an oppurtunity to purchase the ticket before boarding the train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think the Excess system is complicated, strewn with errors and should be abolished!

I would argue that someone with a standard class ticket wishing to sit in First due to overcrowding, should only be able to do the following:

1. Upgrade the whole ticket, whether single or return tot he first class equivalent
2. Buy a new first class single (if it's cheaper than the upgrade)
3. Ask the conductoer for permission to use first class if they have a disability, or are elderly, pregnant etc not just to use a laptop)
4. Stay where they are!

Many of my local trains are overcrowded, absolutely crammed at peak times, but there is no option to go in First as the trains are standard class only!

OK fair point but TPE do have First Class and they encourage use of this by advertising this and also on the train an announcement to the effect of the following is broadcast at regular intervals:-

'Any customers holiding First Class tickets can use the First Class accomodation whuch is situated at the rear of the train'-obvious you would guess!

then it continues..

'Standard Class ticket holders will be required to upgrade their ticket to use the First Class accommodation on the train'

This is encouraging customers to go to First Class and request an upgrade.

I don't see the problem with wanting to use the First Class section if it's available-I use the TPE services mainly for business and value the oppurtunity to work for an hour in the First Class section when I can't get a seat in the Standard Section of the train.

I think that the TPE First is very good on another subject-it's not Virgin Pendolino but for short journeys it's OK-perhaps not Edinburgh to Manchester!

In summary the excess fare processes should be followed correctly by staff and customers regardless of whether they are fair or not until such time as they are stopped although I think that they are there to give the customer the oppurtunity to amend their travel plans as required and this is acceptable.

As for standing on trains this is a National problem and should be resolved by the companies-First Class should be for better seating and other benefits not just to get a seat on the train.
 
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glynn80

Established Member
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1 Jun 2008
Messages
1,666
I was looking for the process where there was an oppurtunity to purchase the ticket before boarding the train.

Do apologise, the FRPP states the following:

FRPP said:
The Excess Fare to charge where there was “opportunity to buy” before boarding the train

Transfer to First Class accommodation

  • Tickets other than Season Tickets and Travelcards - charge the difference between the fare paid and appropriate fare for the journey being made. Holders of Railcards giving discounts on First Class travel are eligible for discounted fares, only if original tickets were discounted.
  • Season Tickets and Travelcards - charge the full First Class Single fare for the journey being made as if no ticket held.
 

premier01

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2009
Messages
459
Thanks-it seems that there is the option to request an excess on the train however the process for excessing a ticket at the station is more flexible and works out cheaper than having to pay the difference between the Open Single tickets-as I said originally it's better to sort before boarding the train to save costs and time.

The only clarification I would appreciate is where do the local rules apply that overwrite the FRPP- simply a customer should have the option to purchase an excess ticket except where Penalty Fares are issued-this is for all types of excess fares.

Interstingly on the subject of the Standard to First Class excess process where the correct process gives savings by excssing the ticket for one direction then the other

The correct method, which in this case isn't actually too difficult to do, is the difference between the FDS which is £20.60 and the SDS which is £15.60. Thus the correct XS is £5.

Which goes back to my earlier post as to why this is such a sham. In theory, in this case if you upgraded in both directions you would pay £20.60 SOR + £5 XS outward + £5 XS return = £30.60 Total Fare Paid, thus saving £19.40 on the actual First Class fare for that journey, which other people would have paid.

it also works the other way:-

Preston to Manchester Piccadilly

Upgrade from Standard to First Class on the outward journey only:-

Anytime Standard Ticket:- £15.70
Anytime First Class Ticket:- £20.20

correct process:

Anytime Standard Single Ticket:- £9.50
Anytime First Class Ticket:- £13.50

excess fare:- £13.50 - £9.50

£4.00


incorrect process-half the difference between the Standard and First Class Anytime Return Tickets:-

excess fare:- £20.20 - £15.70

£4.30 / 2

£2.15

saving £1.85



Therefore the correct process isn't always the cheapest option-although this is a small difference I'm sure the same principle would apply for other journeys.

I will print the additional FRPP documentation that I don't have and use this as back-up if there are problems with this when I try to excess tickets at the station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks-it seems that there is the option to request an excess on the train however the process for excessing a ticket at the station is more flexible and works out cheaper than having to pay the difference between the Open Single tickets-as I said originally it's better to sort before boarding the train to save costs and time.

The only clarification I would appreciate is where do the local rules apply that overwrite the FRPP- simply a customer should have the option to purchase an excess ticket except where Penalty Fares are issued-this is for all types of excess fares.

Interstingly on the subject of the Standard to First Class excess process where the correct process gives savings by excssing the ticket for one direction then the other

The correct method, which in this case isn't actually too difficult to do, is the difference between the FDS which is £20.60 and the SDS which is £15.60. Thus the correct XS is £5.

Which goes back to my earlier post as to why this is such a sham. In theory, in this case if you upgraded in both directions you would pay £20.60 SOR + £5 XS outward + £5 XS return = £30.60 Total Fare Paid, thus saving £19.40 on the actual First Class fare for that journey, which other people would have paid.

it also works the other way:-

Preston to Manchester Piccadilly

Upgrade from Standard to First Class on the outward journey only:-

Anytime Standard Ticket:- £15.70
Anytime First Class Ticket:- £20.20

correct process:

Anytime Standard Single Ticket:- £9.50
Anytime First Class Ticket:- £13.50

excess fare:- £13.50 - £9.50

£4.00


incorrect process-half the difference between the Standard and First Class Anytime Return Tickets:-

excess fare:- £20.20 - £15.70

£4.30 / 2

£2.15

saving £1.85



Therefore the correct process isn't always the cheapest option-although this is a small difference I'm sure the same principle would apply for other journeys.

I will print the additional FRPP documentation that I don't have and use this as back-up if there are problems with this when I try to excess tickets at the station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have just looked at this on the Avantix. By doing what I (and no doubt others) was taught, the following occurs:

Find PRE - MIA FOR fare, which is £41.20. Select fare. Select Excess. Select Standard to First. Select direction Outward. Enter original ticket value (£21.60). Machine says XS is £10.30, which is half of the difference between the SOR which the passenger has, and the FOR which they want for this journey.

The correct method, which in this case isn't actually too difficult to do, is the difference between the FDS which is £20.60 and the SDS which is £15.60. Thus the correct XS is £5.

What is the correct process to follow in the system then-do you need to select the Single Fares and excess this-it seems easy if that's all there is to the process.

I'm guessing this is the system used by TPE-however probably best to sort at the station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I can't believe that there are some companies that charge First Class fares for sub-standard First Class accommodation-a seperate discussion.
 
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