Standees on heritage railways

[Bensonby]

I have though in the past what would happen if a passenger was stranded on a heritage railway on account of the last train being too full to board. I don’t know if it’s ever happened, but I do remember a visit I made to the Bluebell a few years ago when there was disruption after a failed train and they were struggling with crowds at Horsted Keynes.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

I have though in the past what would happen if a passenger was stranded on a heritage railway on account of the last train being too full to board. I don’t know if it’s ever happened, but I do remember a visit I made to the Bluebell a few years ago when there was disruption after a failed train and they were struggling with crowds at Horsted Keynes.

I don't think that could happen, but I'm sure if someone was stranded, for whatever reason, with the amount of goodwill surrounding heritage operations, someone would give the person a lift to the other end of the line. After all, none of them are very long.

 

[AndyW33]

A capacity (number of tickets available) is set for each departure. The booking system is linked so each booking office is selling from the same inventory. This works very well for the outward journey but self evidently as others have described issues can arise if a large number of passengers decide to travel back on the same departure.

It does of course require heritage railways to go to computerised ticketing from seat inventory for their normal scheduled services (which National Rail TOCs don't use so no piggybacking on existing software), so no more Edmundson card tickets, except possibly as mere souvenirs, and significant expenditure on computers and software. Then of course unstaffed halts, which are not uncommon on heritage railways, represent another difficulty.

 

[wagwan my g]

It's certainly not unheard of to stand on a national network train today, and I believe it was the same under British railways, it's part of recreating the image although it may not be the nicest of experiences to stand it's no different to how it was. And preserved lines need the income, they don't want to be turning people away because they might have to stand.

 

[Trainfan344]

Worse experience I've had was a 1940s event at the NNR where every singe train was full and standing. Also had a few small hops at the GCR where I've had to stand after a TPO run.

 

[paul1609]

It does of course require heritage railways to go to computerised ticketing from seat inventory for their normal scheduled services (which National Rail TOCs don't use so no piggybacking on existing software), so no more Edmundson card tickets, except possibly as mere souvenirs, and significant expenditure on computers and software. Then of course unstaffed halts, which are not uncommon on heritage railways, represent another difficulty.

The most common ticketing system used by heritage railways (in the South anyway) is called Merac its a full POS system that evolved from the theatre industry. One of its advantages it can handle gift aid to the satisfaction of HMRC. At my railway we use a computer generated ticket again because the wording HMRC require wouldn't fit on an Edmondson ticket, which we give out free to passengers as a souvenir as appropriate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think that could happen, but I'm sure if someone was stranded, for whatever reason, with the amount of goodwill surrounding heritage operations, someone would give the person a lift to the other end of the line. After all, none of them are very long.

There's also a lot less paperwork involved with putting on an extra service. Got a driver and guard? Fine, run it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It's authentic overcrowding from back in the day!

 

[paul1609]

I have though in the past what would happen if a passenger was stranded on a heritage railway on account of the last train being too full to board. I don’t know if it’s ever happened, but I do remember a visit I made to the Bluebell a few years ago when there was disruption after a failed train and they were struggling with crowds at Horsted Keynes.

At the K&ESR we have sent out a DMU or the coaching set off an earlier train with a diesel loco to act as a sweeper when we think there's a problem. People missing their last train back to a campsite somewhere further down the line because they were delayed in the pub happens quite often too fortunately there's a later bus out as far as Northiam

 

[bramling]

It's authentic overcrowding from back in the day!

Authentic or otherwise, people don't really expect it when they've paid quite a large sum of money. Back in the day you wouldn't be paying something between £10 and £20 for a journey of only a few miles.

 

[paul1609]

In normal service trains we try not to exceed 80% of the seats

 

[duffield]

In normal service trains we try not to exceed 80% of the seats

Quite right too, parties of e.g. four will have a *very* negative view if they get split up and have to sit in two or more groups after paying maybe £100 between them and expecting a nice social time, and that's almost always going to happen as you approach 90% capacity.

(Or maybe people don't care anymore as they are all constantly on their individual smartphones? )

 

[L&Y Robert]

I just saw, about 10-05am on 'Rail Cam' a steam-hauled 2 coach train pass Norden-wards non-stop through Corfe. There was a bunch of orange-clad photographers at the end of the platform as well, eagerly awaiting it, so it must have been something special. Anybody know what this unusual working was?

 

[Belperpete]

It does of course require heritage railways to go to computerised ticketing from seat inventory for their normal scheduled services (which National Rail TOCs don't use so no piggybacking on existing software), so no more Edmundson card tickets, except possibly as mere souvenirs, and significant expenditure on computers and software. Then of course unstaffed halts, which are not uncommon on heritage railways, represent another difficulty.

You do NOT need a computer to do demand management! You just give the booking clerks a counter which they click for each passenger. As paul1609 says, you set the loading limit at a percentage of the seating capacity, to allow for people you haven't counted (those with passes, who joined at an intermediate station, and so on). Once you start getting to the loading limit, you check with the guard how many seats are actually left, and warn families that they may not be able to sit together..

While you don't know what specific passengers are going to do, experience should tell you that at this time of year, on that particular train, the loading limit needs to be set at a certain figure. If you have a coach totally pre-booked, then you simply lower the loading limit by that amount. It is not an exact science, and agreed that Galas pose their own problems. But in the case reported by the OP, on an ordinary service day, the railway concerned apparently got it wrong to the extent that people were having to stand in the guards van.

Once you have people standing, it not only means a poor experience for those standing, but also for those who have a seat who will feel crowded. won't be able to see out the opposite window, and may have trouble getting to the toilet or buffet. It is not good for the railway, as it is likely to lead to poor on-line reviews which these days can have a significant impact on future custom.

 

[bramling]

You do NOT need a computer to do demand management! You just give the booking clerks a counter which they click for each passenger. As paul1609 says, you set the loading limit at a percentage of the seating capacity, to allow for people you haven't counted (those with passes, who joined at an intermediate station, and so on). Once you start getting to the loading limit, you check with the guard how many seats are actually left, and warn families that they may not be able to sit together..

While you don't know what specific passengers are going to do, experience should tell you that at this time of year, on that particular train, the loading limit needs to be set at a certain figure. If you have a coach totally pre-booked, then you simply lower the loading limit by that amount. It is not an exact science, and agreed that Galas pose their own problems. But in the case reported by the OP, on an ordinary service day, the railway concerned apparently got it wrong to the extent that people were having to stand in the guards van.

Once you have people standing, it not only means a poor experience for those standing, but also for those who have a seat who will feel crowded. won't be able to see out the opposite window, and may have trouble getting to the toilet or buffet. It is not good for the railway, as it is likely to lead to poor on-line reviews which these days can have a significant impact on future custom.

I agree with all this. I do agree with the general view that it's hard to predict demand, and even more difficult to attempt to control it. However the end result is a full train gradually filling up more and more, which as you say devalues the experience which people have paid quite a bit of money for. They're not just paying to get from A to B like on a normal railway, they're paying for an experience, and that shouldn't mean someone's arse in your face.

Any issue seems to resolve more around supply, either number of services run or the length. Some railways are quite flexible or even reactive (for example I have known the Vale of Rheidol bring out an extra carriage if there's a sudden surge in demand). Others seem to take the view that this is what we run and that's that. I get that there may well be infrastructure constraints, but if they're regularly getting over-filled trains then perhaps it's time to modify the infrastructure.

One railway, I forget which, ran a special dedicated early train for the coach tours, avoiding having carriages booked out on later trips. I thought this was a good way of handling that issue, which is something which frequently crops up on trip adviser reviews.

 

[paul1609]

You do NOT need a computer to do demand management! You just give the booking clerks a counter which they click for each passenger. As paul1609 says, you set the loading limit at a percentage of the seating capacity, to allow for people you haven't counted (those with passes, who joined at an intermediate station, and so on). Once you start getting to the loading limit, you check with the guard how many seats are actually left, and warn families that they may not be able to sit together..

While you don't know what specific passengers are going to do, experience should tell you that at this time of year, on that particular train, the loading limit needs to be set at a certain figure. If you have a coach totally pre-booked, then you simply lower the loading limit by that amount. It is not an exact science, and agreed that Galas pose their own problems. But in the case reported by the OP, on an ordinary service day, the railway concerned apparently got it wrong to the extent that people were having to stand in the guards van.

Once you have people standing, it not only means a poor experience for those standing, but also for those who have a seat who will feel crowded. won't be able to see out the opposite window, and may have trouble getting to the toilet or buffet. It is not good for the railway, as it is likely to lead to poor on-line reviews which these days can have a significant impact on future custom.

I'm afraid that I'm firmly of the opinion that you need a computer system these days if you are a Big or middle sized railway. The reason is the growth of online bookings 40% of normal traffic on my railway and growing. I know of one Welsh line that's at 85% plus.

 

[Llanigraham]

Agree that the VoR manage to add an extra coach when needed, but that is helped because they start from where their coaches are stored and there happens to be a shunter available. That isn't the case everywhere.

 

[Mills444]

I just saw, about 10-05am on 'Rail Cam' a steam-hauled 2 coach train pass Norden-wards non-stop through Corfe. There was a bunch of orange-clad photographers at the end of the platform as well, eagerly awaiting it, so it must have been something special. Anybody know what this unusual working was?

photo charter 30120 with P set

 

[Richard P]

I referred to the NYMR in a previous post but I also had this issue on the Strathspey Railway too where 2 coaches of four were taken up with 2 separate coach tours, leaving one full coach for seating plus the catering car for "joe public" turning up on the day. Stood all the way to Aviemore and ruined what should have been a great journey.
The issue I feel almost always revolves around coach tours. Indeed before the train was regularly extended to 4 carriages it used to be the same story on the West Highland line from Crianlarich to Fort William, albeit a service train. Two carriages, one booked out for a coach tour, one coach for everyone else, cue a lot of standing on the service. Scotrail acknowledged the issue and increased the trains to 4 carriages

 

[Bevan Price]

Expect to see at lot standing on Severn Valley Steam Gala Days, especially if there are interesting visiting locos. And I expect the Spring Gala to be busy this year, as I understand the replica GWR "Saint" 4-6-0 is to be a visitor.

 

[Belperpete]

I referred to the NYMR in a previous post but I also had this issue on the Strathspey Railway too where 2 coaches of four were taken up with 2 separate coach tours, leaving one full coach for seating plus the catering car for "joe public" turning up on the day. Stood all the way to Aviemore and ruined what should have been a great journey.
The issue I feel almost always revolves around coach tours.

At this time of year, many railways rely on the coach tour traffic for their reliable "bread and butter" income. Put bluntly, without the coach parties, they probably wouldn't be running a service. The ordinary public are the icing on the cake. But public bookings can be very variable at this time of year. The wrong weather on the day can mean very few public turn up, whereas the pre-booked coach parties can be relied on to turn up.

The issue is not the coach parties themselves, but if you have pre-booked one or two coaches on a train for coach parties, you shouldn't then over-book the public portion of the train.

 

[Belperpete]

I'm afraid that I'm firmly of the opinion that you need a computer system these days if you are a Big or middle sized railway. The reason is the growth of online bookings 40% of normal traffic on my railway and growing. I know of one Welsh line that's at 85% plus.

I agree that in this day and age preserved railways of any significance need to be able to cope with on-line bookings. Many young and not-so-young people nowadays expect to be able to book on-line, and I am regularly asked if it is necessary to do so. Not having on-line booking risks losing an increasing portion of traffic.

However, you do not need a computer system to manage demand on the day. I have some sympathy with those who wish to retain traditional Edmonson tickets sold in the traditional way, rather than have a computerised ticketing system. All you need to know is how many seats you have sold on-line for that train, and subtract those numbers from the loading limit.

 

[bramling]

At this time of year, many railways rely on the coach tour traffic for their reliable "bread and butter" income. Put bluntly, without the coach parties, they probably wouldn't be running a service. The ordinary public are the icing on the cake. But public bookings can be very variable at this time of year. The wrong weather on the day can mean very few public turn up, whereas the pre-booked coach parties can be relied on to turn up.

The issue is not the coach parties themselves, but if you have pre-booked one or two coaches on a train for coach parties, you shouldn't then over-book the public portion of the train.

Out of interest, is it the idea that preserved railways tend to be busier on days with bad weather? This is something which has been suggested a couple of times. Personally I find it a bit of a strange idea as it takes a special sort of person to be on, say, the Ffestiniog on a cold windy and wet day, but is it perhaps the case that in “holiday” areas people will be looking for something indoor to do and a railway simply ticks that box? Whereas a railway in a less touristy area might find people just stay at home?

People will still crowd out something like the Snowdon railway on a bad day, then complain that they got no view! We were fortunate that we ensured a fine day to climb Snowdon, then did the railway on a separate day to tick it off the track list, and by coincidence we struck lucky with the weather there too. Judging by some of the reviews we were rather lucky.

Needless to say on many railways the cafe often seems to be the star attraction more so than the trains!

 

[Taunton]

I've never managed the Snowdon Mountain because on two occasions, not bank hols or anything, I've got to Llanberis late morning to find the whole rest of the day is sold out. Won't bother trying again.

 

[paul1609]

Out of interest, is it the idea that preserved railways tend to be busier on days with bad weather? This is something which has been suggested a couple of times. Personally I find it a bit of a strange idea as it takes a special sort of person to be on, say, the Ffestiniog on a cold windy and wet day, but is it perhaps the case that in “holiday” areas people will be looking for something indoor to do and a railway simply ticks that box? Whereas a railway in a less touristy area might find people just stay at home?

People will still crowd out something like the Snowdon railway on a bad day, then complain that they got no view! We were fortunate that we ensured a fine day to climb Snowdon, then did the railway on a separate day to tick it off the track list, and by coincidence we struck lucky with the weather there too. Judging by some of the reviews we were rather lucky.

Needless to say on many railways the cafe often seems to be the star attraction more so than the trains!

On the K&esr this used to be the case as if the weather was good people would go to the beach instead but when we opened to Bodiam the castle is also a dry weather activity so it's equalled itself out.

 

[Dai Corner]

I've never managed the Snowdon Mountain because on two occasions, not bank hols or anything, I've got to Llanberis late morning to find the whole rest of the day is sold out. Won't bother trying again.

You can book in advance
http://snowdon.vticket.co.uk/

 

[pdeaves]

Out of interest, is it the idea that preserved railways tend to be busier on days with bad weather?

An industrial museum near Weston-super-Mare is usually very quiet on sunny days as everyone goes to the beach. When the weather is poor(er) they get more visitors as the attraction has areas under cover. I would imagine a heritage railway would or could experience similar.

 

[Llanigraham]

Out of interest, is it the idea that preserved railways tend to be busier on days with bad weather? This is something which has been suggested a couple of times. Personally I find it a bit of a strange idea as it takes a special sort of person to be on, say, the Ffestiniog on a cold windy and wet day, but is it perhaps the case that in “holiday” areas people will be looking for something indoor to do and a railway simply ticks that box? Whereas a railway in a less touristy area might find people just stay at home?

When it is wet and cold down on Black Rock Sands, and you don't fancy an expensive and wet walk around Portmeirion, what better than to sit on a warm and dry train up into the mountains, even if they might be cloudy? And you can even get coffee and cake, or even a drink delivered to your seat. I know which I would prefer!

People will still crowd out something like the Snowdon railway on a bad day, then complain that they got no view! We were fortunate that we ensured a fine day to climb Snowdon, then did the railway on a separate day to tick it off the track list, and by coincidence we struck lucky with the weather there too. Judging by some of the reviews we were rather lucky.

You were!

Needless to say on many railways the cafe often seems to be the star attraction more so than the trains!

That certainly seems to apply to Spooner's at Harbour, and increasingly at Tan-y-Bwlch, which I suspect is why both have recently been done up.
I will also head for Wharf on the Talyllyn for a quick coffee if I'm in Tywyn; there would be even better if the car park was closer. I note they are also doing up the cafe at Abergonolwyn. Must pay them a visit.

Our classic car club regularly "exhibit" at Raven Sq at Welshpool during the summer and it amazes me that there are no facilities there for food, other than poor coffee, crisps, chocolate and ice cream. The number of times we hear potentional passengers complain that there is nothing to eat whilst they wait for the next service and go away, even if it is to the pub next door. Wasted potential income!
Even our lot take their own lunches yet I know most would buy at the station if there was something available.

 

[Belperpete]

Out of interest, is it the idea that preserved railways tend to be busier on days with bad weather? This is something which has been suggested a couple of times.

That is a simplification. If you get a run of hot, sunny weather, even a slight down-turn in the weather can cause a rush, as people who have the railway on their bucket list decide to do it after spending the previous days on the beach. Whereas if you have had a run of bad weather, a relatively good day encourages all the walkers, day-trippers and long weekenders out. At this time of year, sitting in a nice heated coach, with hot drinks brought to your seat, can seem quite an attractive option, whatever the weather.

 

[satisnek]

Expect to see at lot standing on Severn Valley Steam Gala Days, especially if there are interesting visiting locos. And I expect the Spring Gala to be busy this year, as I understand the replica GWR "Saint" 4-6-0 is to be a visitor.

Typically the Autumn gala, 1100ish departure from Kidderminster on Saturday with the 'star' visiting loco up front. Now that's wedged!!