Start-up 'European Sleeper' announces Brussels - Amsterdam - Berlin - Prague

[jamesontheroad]

European Sleeper are featured on Dutch television this morning, announcing that their first route will be Brussels - Amsterdam - Berlin and Prague.

Link to a video interview, in Dutch, conducted in some of the second hand rolling stock that the company will use: https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/economie/t...n-naar-praag-we-zijn-de-cowboys-van-het-spoor

Google Translated, the summary is:

Own night train to Prague: 'We are the cowboys of the track'​

The night train is making a comeback in Europe. Major railway companies are reintroducing the long journey with a cot. A Dutch startup also dares to do it. "It's exciting. But it is possible."

The company's website is at https://www.europeansleeper.eu/english/

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

'cowboys' seems an unfortunate word, as in 'cowboy builders'.

 

[notlob.divad]

I suppose this New-European Article is also partially linked to this announcement. Not specifically Night trains, but they are mentioned several times

Is the Trans Europe Express to return to the rails?

The tantalising plans to reboot Europe's legendary rail service for the modern, post-pandemic age

www.theneweuropean.co.uk

Is the Trans Europe Express to return to the rails?​

... it is tantalising to think that something akin to the old TEE – being dubbed the Trans Europe Express 2.0 – could be back on Europe’s rails as soon as 2025, helping the European Commission meet its target of cutting emissions by 90% by 2050 (trains are deemed to be six times less polluting than planes, which it is hoped they will replace). The big differences between the old TEE and a potential TEE 2.0? Fares suited to all in more than one class, and much faster trains. ...

The train historian Christian Wolmar believes that “the EU has been around for a long time and it’s never quite got it together” with creating a joined-up train network and that many issues of compatibility of trains and tracks stand in the way – as well as driver training. Tickets would also have to be competitive with budget airlines. If TEE 2.0 were to happen, he sees night trains as its best chance: “Those are viable as you save money on a hotel night.”

 

[biko]

I suppose this New-European Article is also partially linked to this announcement. Not specifically Night trains, but they are mentioned several times

Is the Trans Europe Express to return to the rails?

The tantalising plans to reboot Europe's legendary rail service for the modern, post-pandemic age

www.theneweuropean.co.uk

Is the Trans Europe Express to return to the rails?​

... it is tantalising to think that something akin to the old TEE – being dubbed the Trans Europe Express 2.0 – could be back on Europe’s rails as soon as 2025, helping the European Commission meet its target of cutting emissions by 90% by 2050 (trains are deemed to be six times less polluting than planes, which it is hoped they will replace). The big differences between the old TEE and a potential TEE 2.0? Fares suited to all in more than one class, and much faster trains. ...

The train historian Christian Wolmar believes that “the EU has been around for a long time and it’s never quite got it together” with creating a joined-up train network and that many issues of compatibility of trains and tracks stand in the way – as well as driver training. Tickets would also have to be competitive with budget airlines. If TEE 2.0 were to happen, he sees night trains as its best chance: “Those are viable as you save money on a hotel night.”

This isn’t linked. The article is about a German (I believe) initiative for more international trains. The new night trains are a separate private initiative of some people in the Dutch railway industry.

 

[superalbs]

London to Praha with one change...

 

[Aictos]

If successful, then it be just another method of me travelling to North East Germany.

I wish them the best of luck.

 

[biko]

It is now also reported by the national public news broadcaster NOS: https://nos.nl/artikel/2375616-nach...-traject-brussel-amsterdam-berlijn-praag.html

Quick translation of article:

Sleeper train fans want to run trains on route Brussels - Amsterdam - Berlin - Prague

A Dutch cooperation wants to run a sleeper train between Brussels and Prague starting from April next year. On its way, it will call in, among other places, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Berlin and Dresden.

The Cooperation called European Sleeper, is located in Amsterdam and established by two Dutchmen. "Two starting entrepreneurs, with a great passion for the sleeper train", they write on the website.

In the first months, the train runs three times per week, after that nearly daily is the planning. Bicycles can be taken as well.

The goal of the cooperation is to let more people travel sustainably and "let people enjoy the sleeper train as comfortable and efficient mode of transport."

The ticket prices are not known yet. The initiators do not worry about that. "Flying to Prague is not extremely cheap", says Chris Engelsman in Het Parool. "Furthermore, there are many hidden costs in a plane ticket. You have, for example, to go to the city centre, often by bus, train or taxi. Also, you can save a night in a hotel both on the outward and return trip."

How long the journey from Rotterdam or Amsterdam to Berlin or Prague will be, is also not known yet.

The cooperation works together with a private Czech railway company. On the longer term a whole network of sleeper trains should emerge. People who want to support the cooperation, can buy a share.

 

[StephenHunter]

The private Czech company appears to be Regiojet.

 

[jamesontheroad]

The private Czech company appears to be Regiojet.

Indeed, European Sleeper will be "working with" (i.e. subcontracting?) RegioJet for some or all of the operation. Should help drive sales originating in the Czech Republic, since Regiojet have a strong and well established brand.

In other news, a completely unrelated operator called Moonlight Express has announced they will drive night trains Brussels - Liege - Berlin. There was some press about them today, perhaps rushed out because of the European Sleeper announcement? Translated from Dutch, from Business AM...

The plan is to travel back and forth between the Belgian and German capital three times a week, says Louis De Jaeger, one of the initiators of the MoonLight Express. On the way there will certainly be a stop in Liège, and perhaps also in German cities. Departure in Brussels will be around 8 pm, arrival in Berlin around 9 am. De Jaeger and his partner Louis Lammertyn only want to offer beds, not seats. '

It is degrading to have to sit on a chair all night ', says De Jaeger. There will be shared sleeping areas for five to six people and compartments for couples. The company will lease the carriages from RDC in Germany, which, among other things, already supplies trains for the Alpen-Sylt night train in Germany. De Jaeger also says he has already arranged collaborations with sustainable caterers 'to not only have to deliver the standard croque-monsieur'. The permits are already in order on the German side, says De Jaeger. In Belgium, the train must run under the NMBS license.

"Negotiations with NMBS have been ongoing for several months, but nothing has been written down yet." The initiators are confident that everything can be arranged to start in April 2022.

 

[Doppelganger]

London to Praha with one change...

London to anywhere is just going to be faff though. Brussels is obviously a great place to change, but as The UK isn't in Schengen, and not likely to ever be, then sadly it won't be feasible to run a London to other capital cities beyond Brussels and Amsterdam (the later already problematic one way).

Where you have trains across the EU, they tend to stop at several placed en route. Budapest, Bratislava, Warsaw for instance.

Great shame London isn't better connected, as the infrastructure is in place, but I fear this is another extension of the self imposed isolationism that has come me about through Brexit.

 

[StephenHunter]

You wait ages for a new sleeper train...

 

[30907]

London to anywhere is just going to be faff though. Brussels is obviously a great place to change, but as The UK isn't in Schengen, and not likely to ever be, then sadly it won't be feasible to run a London to other capital cities beyond Brussels and Amsterdam (the later already problematic one way).

Where you have trains across the EU, they tend to stop at several placed en route. Budapest, Bratislava, Warsaw for instance.

Great shame London isn't better connected, as the infrastructure is in place, but I fear this is another extension of the self imposed isolationism that has come me about through Brexit.

It's travel TO London that is the real problem, and has more to do with Government policy demanding high levels of security.
Yes, we're not going to see sleepers out of St Pancras, but the simple change in Brussels isn't too much of a problem.
Not sure wha5 you last paragraph refers too.

 

[306024]

Interesting development. However from the UK I’ve always managed to get a good price for flying to Prague. Perhaps it’s not so good from Brussels or Amsterdam.

Favourite way of getting to Prague though is a cheap flight to Berlin, then the scenic rail journey via Dresden.

 

[Doppelganger]

Not sure wha5 you last paragraph refers too.

London's n could have through services to Berlin, Prague & Warsaw. Sadly it won't be politically acceptable and moreso with the UK out of the EU then having more than one stop on the train is a major no no.

London *could* have direct services to a lot of Western and Central European destinations as the rails are there for the most part (loading guage accepted), but the passport and immigration facilities are not and it would counter to the current border protecting rhetoric.

 

[StephenHunter]

Ukraine isn't in the EU and that has regular through services to Austria. Russia doesn't even have a free trade agreement and has had through services to W Europe since 1960.

 

[Doppelganger]

Ukraine isn't in the EU and that has regular through services to Austria. Russia doesn't even have a free trade agreement and has had through services to W Europe since 1960.

Yes, but those services take forever.

Compare trains within Schengen: No faffing at borders, just efficient trains which run at a decent speed and call at useful stops en route.

Trains in Russia or the Ukraine are susceptible to the antiquated infrastructure and the low running speeds.

International services need to compete with aeroplanes. 1960s services which still exist, are only there due to their historic nature. Many are suspended due to COVID, let's see how it all looks on the other side of it all.

 

[JonasB]

Yes, but those services take forever.

The Helsinki-St Petersburg trains are pretty fast and immigration and customs checks are done onboard.

 

[Doppelganger]

The Helsinki-St Petersburg trains are pretty fast and immigration and customs checks are done onboard.

They aren't that far away and it's only crossing one international border

 

[StephenHunter]

Still a pretty big border between the EU and Russia; remember there are tariffs involved there.

 

[Doppelganger]

Still a pretty big border between the EU and Russia; remember there are tariffs involved there.

Not for people there aren't...

 

[StephenHunter]

Not for people there aren't...

There is a charge for the visa.

 

[BRX]

The "border" issues coming in and out of the UK, as far as I can see, are really more about security concerns relating to the tunnel, than they are about anything else. Doing an immigrations/customs check on board a train doesn't really need to be such a big deal; it's done in lots of places and has been for decades, as others have pointed out.

 

[Doppelganger]

There is a charge for the visa.

For whom? Not everyone has to pay/apply for a visa.

Tariffs usually limit how much of something can come in, are there limits on tourists?

 

[StephenHunter]

For whom? Not everyone has to pay/apply for a visa.

Tariffs usually limit how much of something can come in, are there limits on tourists?

EU and UK nationals need visas.

 

[Doppelganger]

EU and UK nationals need visas.

Yes. It was rhetorical.

But not everyone is subject to it.

Either way a visa is not the same as duties being imposed at a border with all the customs checks that entails

 

[XAM2175]

There are three major considerations that limit the operation of any passenger service through the Channel Tunnel:

1. The rolling stock must satisfy the additional requirements set by the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority, above and beyond those required for normal operation in the UK and/or France.
2. Passengers, their belongs, and the train itself if necessary, must undergo security checks prior to entering the tunnel.
3. Passengers and their belongs must also undergo border formalities; previously only immigration controls, but now also customs following Brexit. The UK Government insist (and have from the very beginning) that the immigration controls on passengers bound for the UK are undertaken before the train enters the tunnel, and not while the train is underway.

I'd suggest that, until such time as the UK government has a major change-of-heart (or decides to join the Schengen area ), there is little value in fantasising about cross-Channel sleepers.

 

[Ianno87]

There are three major considerations that limit the operation of any passenger service through the Channel Tunnel:

1. The rolling stock must satisfy the additional requirements set by the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority, above and beyond those required for normal operation in the UK and/or France.
2. Passengers, their belongs, and the train itself if necessary, must undergo security checks prior to entering the tunnel.
3. Passengers and their belongs must also undergo border formalities; previously only immigration controls, but now also customs following Brexit. The UK Government insist (and have from the very beginning) that the immigration controls on passengers bound for the UK are undertaken before the train enters the tunnel, and not while the train is underway.

I'd suggest that, until such time as the UK government has a major change-of-heart (or decides to join the Schengen area ), there is little value in fantasising about cross-Channel sleepers.

Also 4. The track access charges needed for both the tunnel and HS1 to St Pancras that aren't helpful to the general marginal economics of sleepers.

 

[DDB]

I think from a UK traveller perspective this is great news. Sleepers through the tunnel are always going to be difficult for the reasons listed but by starting from Brussels they are enabling one change London to Prague with it mostly by sleeper. It may well be my UK bias but I do wonder if Brussels was chosen with at least one eye on the UK (espically the bits near London) market via eurostar.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

"It is degrading to have to sit on a chair all night"

Translation: "We don't want backpackers or budget travellers filling our trains".

 

[30907]

It may well be my UK bias but I do wonder if Brussels was chosen with at least one eye on the UK (espically the bits near London) market via eurostar.

Possibly, though with ES running to Amsterdam I'm not sure.
On other forums the thought is more that BE and Southern NL increase the catchment area significantly at marginal cost.