Starting Long and Finishing Short

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by BigVern, 10 Nov 2011.

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  1. BigVern

    BigVern Member

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    There is a Std Class Anytime Day Return fare Holmes Chapel to Birchwood via Crewe for £10.00.
    This fare is valid via Manchester Piccadilly, unlike the similar 'route direct' fare, which has an easement forbiding this.
    I believe this fare is set by Northern.

    What are the rules for this fare regarding starting long and finishing short, and break of journey, both on the outbound and return legs.

    For instance, is it necessary to travel to Crewe at all?
    Could I leave at Stockport on the outbound journey?

    Thanks for your help.
     
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  3. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Welcome to the forum :)

    Holmes Chapel [[stn]HCH[/stn]] to Birchwood [[stn]BWD[/stn]]

    Route Crewe
    £10.00 SDR
    £9.80 SDS

    Route Manchester
    £15.60 SOR
    £13.80 SDR
    £12.60 SDS

    Route Any Permitted
    £17.50 SOR
    £15.00 SDR
    £13.50 SDS

    The Route Manchester fare costs more than Route Crewe, therefore it is valid via Crewe additionally for no additional fare.

    If you use a route Crewe ticket via Manchester, the excess is £3.80 if using an SDR in both directions, or £1.90 in one direction.

    The conditions for Anytime tickets (including SOR - Anytime Return, SDR - Anytime Day Return, SDS - Anytime Day Single) include the following:-

    Break of journey (including starting and finishing short) is allowed unless it is made clear in the "notices and publications" that it isn't. In this case, no such prohibition exists and break of journey is explicitly allowed for any ticket within the Anytime category.

    For travel via Stockport, you require a route Manchester ticket (or excess).
     
  4. district

    district Member

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    Can also confirm that Northern do set the fare as well ;)
     
  5. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Slightly puzzled as to why there is need for a Route Any Permitted fare. It's not as if a passenger can travel between the two stations without going through either Crewe or Manchester.
     
  6. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Yes, true, didn't spot that question!
    Good point, but I think this is to do with clustering. No-one has set these routeings and fares for this specific journey.
     
  7. BigVern

    BigVern Member

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    Thank you for the prompt reply.

    However the Northern web site offers the £10.00 fare via Manchester.
    If you enter after 07:45 for the outward journey and after 20:45 for the return then both are routed via Manchester for this fare.

    Doesn't this mean the £10.00 fare is available for all journeys between Holmes Chapel and Manchester?

    Thanks again, and sorry if this appears twice - still getting the hang of it!
     
  8. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I expect this to be an error on Northern's website. The £10 fare is Route Crewe so you must travel via Crewe and must not double-back, ie. passing through the same station twice. If you buy the ticket with reservations on services via Manchester then they will have to honour it, otherwise travelling via Manchester will likely mean the payment of an excess fare.
     
  9. ANorthernGuard

    ANorthernGuard Established Member

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    quite simply before the last Fare update, all you savvy passengers were asking for Tickets to Birchwood which was Cheaper than tickets to Manchester as at the time it was any route people just bought the ticket to Birchwood instead of a Ticket to manchester costing Northern alot of money
     
  10. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    That doesn't quite answer the question though!

    However here are some fares comparisons.

    Holmes Chapel - Birchwood
    SDR fares


    NFM95 (02/01/2007 to 19/05/2007)
    Route Direct: £8.50
    Route Any Permitted: £8.80

    NFM10 (04/09/2011 to 01/01/2012)
    Route Crewe: £10.00
    Route Manchester: £13.80
    Route Any Permitted: £15.00

    Direct has been re-named Crewe (even though Manchester was/is more direct!), if this fare and the routeing of it was protected then someone should contact their MP (if in the area) and/or the DfT about this. Not sure if that's the case or not.

    Route Manchester costs more than Crewe, therefore it is also valid via Crewe, and the Any Permitted is pointless. If you want to travel outward via Crewe and return via Manchester you can simply get an excess of half the difference in the fares (£1.90) to do this! The Any Permitted gives no benefits over Route Manchester, so anyone sold one is arguably being mis-sold.

    For comparison...

    Holmes Chapel - Manchester
    SDR fares


    NFM95
    Route Any Permitted: £10.00

    NFM10
    Route Any Permitted: £11.80


    (SDR is now called the 'simple' name of Anytime Day Return, formerly called Standard Day Return)
     
  11. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    The route DIRECT fare was/is defined between these two clusters:
    Code:
    From: Q124
      Cluster
    	1220         GOOSTREY	1243            CREWE	1261         SANDBACH	2269         WINSFORD
    	1221    HOLMES CHAPEL	1247         NANTWICH	2230         HARTFORD	2287     ACTON BRIDGE
    
    and
    Code:
    To: Q129
      Cluster
    	0445  WARRINGTON STNS	2301       GLAZEBROOK	2388           SANKEY
    	2284         FRODSHAM	2304        BIRCHWOOD	2391           WIDNES
    	2294     RUNCORN EAST	2387          PADGATE	2817            IRLAM
    
    Seems clear enough that the original intended meaning of DIRECT here was direct between Warrington and Crewe avoiding Manchester, so if DIRECT has been renamed CREWE (as it appears), then it is actually clarifying things and possibly should be tentatively welcomed.

    I don't have a copy of NFM10 to verify, but it looks to me like the ANY PERMITTED fares have also been added between the same clusters as the rte CREWE fares (i.e. the same fares are also available for travel from Warrington to Crewe via Manchester) and the rte MANCHESTER Holmes Chapel to Birchwood is specifically defined between those two stations only.

    I would err on the side of cock-up rather than conspiracy theory here again - it looks like Northern have intended to override the more expensive Warrington to Crewe ANY PERMITTED fare with a slightly cheaper one to reflect the reduced distance travelled when a customer is only going from Holmes Chapel to Birchwood. However they should have routed this one ANY PERMITTED, and then it would override the more expensive ANY PERMITTED fares defined between the clusters.

    We have seen similar messes before from Northern, e.g. Castleford to Sheffield rte ANY PERMITTED being cheaper than rte NOT DONCASTER, where a cheaper fare has been put in to override the more expensive cluster-based one, but they have given it a different routeing so it appears as well as rather than instead of the more expensive fare.
     
  12. BigVern

    BigVern Member

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    In NFM09 there were 2 £10.00 fares.

    Route Direct was set by London Midland, and was used as a cheaper fare for Holmes Chapel to Manchester.
    Then the 'easement' was introduced, so the Route Direct could only be used via Crewe.

    However, the easement did not apply to the Route Crewe fare, set by Northern.

    This this is presumably why all the fares engines (including National Rail) offer the £10.00 fare for the journeys via Piccadilly that I listed above.

    I don't think that is an error. But it does involve doubling back which usually is not allowed. Do the software programs not prevent that?

    Anyway, if it is allowed then my proposition stands - this fare can be used for Holmes Chapel to Manchester journeys.
    Until they bring in a similar 'easement' on this one.
     
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