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State Subsidised Bus to the Pub

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Hornet

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Less a 'booze cruise', more a 'drinks link'.

State-funded 'drink-link' bus will service 50 rural communities.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...ll-service-50-rural-communities-36878957.html
A new State-subsidised bus service will transport rural residents to and from their local pubs this summer, the Sunday Independent can reveal.

Minister for Transport Shane Ross will this week announce 50 'drink-link' bus routes across the country.

The new routes will be in operation in 19 counties and operate mostly on weekends between 6pm and 11pm.

The scheme is aimed at allaying fears over rural isolation ahead of the introduction of strict new drink-driving laws. Around 188 weekly pub-runs will be in operation from June until December on a trial basis and at a cost of €450,000.

Counties Kerry, Cork, Donegal, Kildare, Waterford, Wexford, Cavan, Monaghan, Offaly and Laois will have their own 'drink-link' routes from June until December....
Glad my Taxes is being used for such a worthy and vitally important social service. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Hope those waiting on Hospital Trollys, and those women that are affected by the Cervical Cancer outrage that is occurring in this state at the moment, appreciate the Government priorities.
 
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Busaholic

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Less a 'booze cruise', more a 'drinks link'.

State-funded 'drink-link' bus will service 50 rural communities.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...ll-service-50-rural-communities-36878957.html

Glad my Taxes is being used for such a worthy and vitally important social service. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Hope those waiting on Hospital Trollys, and those women that are affected by the Cervical Cancer outrage that is occurring in this state at the moment, appreciate the Government priorities.

Do you pay taxes in the Irish Republic? I agree that, from a British perspective, this would be a highly contentious proposal, but the Irish have different perspectives on these things. Maybe they think that, post-Brexit, a large part of the population will be in need of a stiff drink or two!
 

yorksrob

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I wish the British Government would do more to help local pubs, particularly those in small communities. A more equitable tax regime, vis a vis supermarket booze would be a place to start.
 

overthewater

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What about the OTHER point? To help stop drink driving? Im sure if it stop putting more people into hospital I think that a good thing...
 

Dennis

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Wow, I hope all late night bus and train services in the UK are all operated commercially - I don't want to be subsidising anyone going to the pub.
 

yorksrob

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To be fair, the (Irish) Government is on to something. As well as the laudable aim of stopping drink-driving, there are many instances of people, often elderly being socially isolated, particularly if they don't go out of the house a lot. By enabling them to get somewhere where they can interact socially, you can improve their mental wellbeing.
 

Dentonian

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Wow, I hope all late night bus and train services in the UK are all operated commercially - I don't want to be subsidising anyone going to the pub.

Someone will no doubt correct me but AFAIK, NO heavy rail services in the UK are commercial - certainly not local rail. As for "late night buses", it depends on area and what you deem as late night. In GM for instance many late evening services are subsidised, but the focus has moved somewhat from getting people home from pubs after 2300hrs to getting people home from late shifts working. Consequently, in the districs especially, subsidised services now often finish earlier than they did before the licencing laws changed. As for "late night" as in after 2330-2400, there were some subsidised services until a few years ago. These were the reverse in concept as some ran 6/7 nights a week and were aimed at shift/night workers as well as the then, infant clubbing scene. However, these were slowly withdrawn or commercialised (with simplified routes) in the 1990s, but off-set by new Fri/Sat night services introduced in Bolton and Wigan, partly at he behest of GMP who wanted to clamp down on fights around taxi ranks (amongst other things). However, these didn't prove successful long-term and so continued subsidy could not be justified. I'm pretty sure ALL remaining Night buses in GM are now fully commercial.
 

AM9

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What about the OTHER point? To help stop drink driving? Im sure if it stop putting more people into hospital I think that a good thing...

It might set a precedent where habitual drink drivers see the absence of such a free service as justifying their criminal activities.
 

radamfi

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As for "late night" as in after 2330-2400, there were some subsidised services until a few years ago. These were the reverse in concept as some ran 6/7 nights a week and were aimed at shift/night workers as well as the then, infant clubbing scene.

I've got some pre-1986 GMPTE timetables somewhere and if I recall many if not most of the night buses were genuine 24 hour services, running every hour through the night, seven days a week. Either on 26 October 1986 or in January 1987, night routes were changed to run mostly Friday and Saturday nights and just two departures a night.
 

Dentonian

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I've got some pre-1986 GMPTE timetables somewhere and if I recall many if not most of the night buses were genuine 24 hour services, running every hour through the night, seven days a week. Either on 26 October 1986 or in January 1987, night routes were changed to run mostly Friday and Saturday nights and just two departures a night.

These would vary, but generally there would be a few hours gap between (say) 0300 & 0600 for the subsidised ones. Also, many (like the one that served the estate where I used to live) had completely different numbers as they ran less direct routes to cover as big a catchment area as possible.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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It might set a precedent where habitual drink drivers see the absence of such a free service as justifying their criminal activities.

That's certainly one way of looking at it. Another would be to say it is pure political opportunism and most of the services will be withdrawn after a few months when all the fuss has died down.

Someone will no doubt correct me but AFAIK, NO heavy rail services in the UK are commercial - certainly not local rail. As for "late night buses", it depends on area and what you deem as late night. In GM for instance many late evening services are subsidised, but the focus has moved somewhat from getting people home from pubs after 2300hrs to getting people home from late shifts working. Consequently, in the districs especially, subsidised services now often finish earlier than they did before the licencing laws changed. As for "late night" as in after 2330-2400, there were some subsidised services until a few years ago. These were the reverse in concept as some ran 6/7 nights a week and were aimed at shift/night workers as well as the then, infant clubbing scene. However, these were slowly withdrawn or commercialised (with simplified routes) in the 1990s, but off-set by new Fri/Sat night services introduced in Bolton and Wigan, partly at he behest of GMP who wanted to clamp down on fights around taxi ranks (amongst other things). However, these didn't prove successful long-term and so continued subsidy could not be justified. I'm pretty sure ALL remaining Night buses in GM are now fully commercial.

Strange then that a number of franchises pay a premium to the DfT for the right to operate. Since evening services on the railway are not accounted separately I do not believe it is possible to substantiate your comment. And if you were to see how busy trains in London are throughout the evening I would expect they are mostly commercial, or would be if only more attempt was made to ensure fares were collected.

As for the decline in night bus services the problem was a combination of the uncertainty caused by deregulation and the failure to cash in on the amended licensing hours until it was too late, ie clubbers got used to having to use taxis which took them to their door even if catching one meant queuing.
 

deltic

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That's certainly one way of looking at it. Another would be to say it is pure political opportunism and most of the services will be withdrawn after a few months when all the fuss has died down.



Strange then that a number of franchises pay a premium to the DfT for the right to operate. Since evening services on the railway are not accounted separately I do not believe it is possible to substantiate your comment. And if you were to see how busy trains in London are throughout the evening I would expect they are mostly commercial, or would be if only more attempt was made to ensure fares were collected.

As for the decline in night bus services the problem was a combination of the uncertainty caused by deregulation and the failure to cash in on the amended licensing hours until it was too late, ie clubbers got used to having to use taxis which took them to their door even if catching one meant queuing.
TOCs only pay a premium because the subsidy goes to Network Rail instead - ORR figures show that only 1 or 2 TOCs do not require a subsidy if they had to pay the full NR access charge.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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TOCs only pay a premium because the subsidy goes to Network Rail instead - ORR figures show that only 1 or 2 TOCs do not require a subsidy if they had to pay the full NR access charge.

But since evening services are not accounted separately my point still stands. Some would certainly lose money (I've worked a few!) and some would be profitable. No blanket statement can cover the reality. There has also been debate about whether NR access charges accurately represent the cost of running trains whether broken down individually or by type. Ask any FOC!
 

Dentonian

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That's certainly one way of looking at it. Another would be to say it is pure political opportunism and most of the services will be withdrawn after a few months when all the fuss has died down.



Strange then that a number of franchises pay a premium to the DfT for the right to operate. Since evening services on the railway are not accounted separately I do not believe it is possible to substantiate your comment. And if you were to see how busy trains in London are throughout the evening I would expect they are mostly commercial, or would be if only more attempt was made to ensure fares were collected.

As for the decline in night bus services the problem was a combination of the uncertainty caused by deregulation and the failure to cash in on the amended licensing hours until it was too late, ie clubbers got used to having to use taxis which took them to their door even if catching one meant queuing.

As franchises, surely it is impossible to identify which bits do/don't attract subsidy. Al I know is that Abellio get £200 million a year for the Northern franchise - coincidentally the same total as for the whole of England & Wales (except London) buses. Locally, a very small number of rail services are enhanced courtesy of the Council tax-payer (Stalybridge-M'cr on Sundays has been quoted).

With late night services, you have to distinguish between clubs (mainly in city centres) and pubs. It is the latter that have suffered the loss of the traditional local drinker, who would catch a bus to the pub and drink proper beer with their mates. Clubbers are more likely to turn to taxis as they are richer or more carefree with their money and image conciousness keeps them away from buses anyway. THey probably also meet and have a few to drink before going to a club, wheras traditional pub goes would travel alone or with one friend, converging on a town centre pub, so taxis wouldn't be cost effective - although, they probably would now as bus fares have grown far faster than taxi fares, especially for journeys of 3 miles or less.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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As franchises, surely it is impossible to identify which bits do/don't attract subsidy. Al I know is that Abellio get £200 million a year for the Northern franchise - coincidentally the same total as for the whole of England & Wales (except London) buses. Locally, a very small number of rail services are enhanced courtesy of the Council tax-payer (Stalybridge-M'cr on Sundays has been quoted).

With late night services, you have to distinguish between clubs (mainly in city centres) and pubs. It is the latter that have suffered the loss of the traditional local drinker, who would catch a bus to the pub and drink proper beer with their mates. Clubbers are more likely to turn to taxis as they are richer or more carefree with their money and image conciousness keeps them away from buses anyway. THey probably also meet and have a few to drink before going to a club, wheras traditional pub goes would travel alone or with one friend, converging on a town centre pub, so taxis wouldn't be cost effective - although, they probably would now as bus fares have grown far faster than taxi fares, especially for journeys of 3 miles or less.

You and I must live in different worlds. Traditional pubs are dying not because of deteriorating bus services but due to cheap supermarket alcohol and people preferring the comfort of their own home against the hubbub of a pub. As for clubbers being more affluent, I say nonsense. No signs of affluence among the groups of young people staggering home past my home every weekend night. Indeed the non-affluent clubbers are another group who would rather start their evening at home with cheap alcohol then spend time in a pub. If pubs want a future they mostly need to be more than just watering holes.
 

Dentonian

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You and I must live in different worlds. Traditional pubs are dying not because of deteriorating bus services but due to cheap supermarket alcohol and people preferring the comfort of their own home against the hubbub of a pub. As for clubbers being more affluent, I say nonsense. No signs of affluence among the groups of young people staggering home past my home every weekend night. Indeed the non-affluent clubbers are another group who would rather start their evening at home with cheap alcohol then spend time in a pub. If pubs want a future they mostly need to be more than just watering holes.

I don't disagree about cheap supermarket alcohol and fully support any tax/minimum unit price to not only turn the tide back in favour of local pubs, but to reduce underage binge drinking. However, the decline in evening bus services started with a bang on 27th October 1986. Cheap supermarket booze is a much more recent phenomena. As for "affluence" you might be right about "different worlds" in a way. When I was brought up in the 70s and early 80s I was taught that you NEVER go into debt, other than for a mortgage to buy a house. If you can't afford something, you don't have it. Admittedly, it was slightly easier in those days as necessities like food, domestic power and reachable public transport (aka buses) have seen much steeper rises than luxuries like holidays, motoring and er, wages. Doubtless many of these "non affluent" clubbers are staggering home after spending money on taxis, booze and whatever else that would probably equate to two days minimum wage.
 

Tetchytyke

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Glad my Taxes is being used for such a worthy and vitally important social service. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You're not Irish so no worries.

Ireland has a massive drink-driving problem, but in rural areas there's no other way of getting to the pub. Funding this got tougher drink-driving laws through. Seems a fair swap.

As for taxis, where I am a Hackney Carriage off the rank will charge me thirty quid to go a little over seven miles. People do baulk at that. Or they get an Uber instead (like I do, and I don't like Uber).
 

Busaholic

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As a proposition, I don't find this much different from TfL instituting the Night Tube for the sake (partly or wholly) of the so-called Nighttime Economy. The Night Tube comes complete with a few bus routes providing extra connections. Some might think with TfL's budgetary problems and continuing cuts in bus frequencies that this is not money well spent. I'm expressing no personal view on this.
 

takno

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I don't disagree about cheap supermarket alcohol and fully support any tax/minimum unit price to not only turn the tide back in favour of local pubs, but to reduce underage binge drinking. However, the decline in evening bus services started with a bang on 27th October 1986. Cheap supermarket booze is a much more recent phenomena. As for "affluence" you might be right about "different worlds" in a way. When I was brought up in the 70s and early 80s I was taught that you NEVER go into debt, other than for a mortgage to buy a house. If you can't afford something, you don't have it. Admittedly, it was slightly easier in those days as necessities like food, domestic power and reachable public transport (aka buses) have seen much steeper rises than luxuries like holidays, motoring and er, wages. Doubtless many of these "non affluent" clubbers are staggering home after spending money on taxis, booze and whatever else that would probably equate to two days minimum wage.
There are undoubtedly some affluent clubbers, but I'm with Shaw S Hunter on this. Most of the clubbers I see are students, typically on an extremely limited budget who were driven out of pubs years ago and pre-drink at home before going direct to clubs. The clubs themselves tend to not charge entry, or charge less than I was paying 25 years ago, and offer cheap drinks deals which make staying topped up relatively cheap. This is followed by a walk or shared taxi home which will often cost a couple of quid. Total cost of the night is often below 20 quid.

That isn't the way it was back in the 90s, but then over half the nightclubs have closed. Sorry to disappoint on minimum unit pricing by the way but you'd have to get to a quid a unit to even start to make pubs competitive again, and nobody is going near that. Supermarket booze prices dropped because of conglomeration of the beer industry and because the disposable income of a huge proportion of the cheap drink consumers has fallen off a cliff, driving the market equilibrium lower. Supermarkets were able to cope with that market reality, pubs weren't.
 

Tetchytyke

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Supermarkets were able to cope with that market reality, pubs weren't.

The Pubcos that own the pubs, and mandate the price tied landlords must pay, are also very capable of coping with that reality.

For many tenanted publicans, the issue is that their Pubco landlord are bleeding them dry. Still, useful for the Pubcos to blame Tesco.

That said, I used to work in students' unions. Alcohol sales, even in "cheaper" SU bars, have dropped off a cliff. Most of the money at my last employer came from selling Starbucks lattes.

Anyway, back to subject. Clearly these rural buses were the way of getting drink drive laws through. They'll die off soon enough.
 

6Gman

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Cheshire East funded an evening bus between Audlem and Nantwich using Rural Bus Grant money aimed at serving drinkers.

Wasn't a success.

(And - arguably - an odd use of public money.)
 

mpthomson

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With late night services, you have to distinguish between clubs (mainly in city centres) and pubs. It is the latter that have suffered the loss of the traditional local drinker, who would catch a bus to the pub and drink proper beer with their mates. Clubbers are more likely to turn to taxis as they are richer or more carefree with their money and image conciousness keeps them away from buses anyway. THey probably also meet and have a few to drink before going to a club, wheras traditional pub goes would travel alone or with one friend, converging on a town centre pub, so taxis wouldn't be cost effective - although, they probably would now as bus fares have grown far faster than taxi fares, especially for journeys of 3 miles or less.

The 'scene' in terms of pubs/clubs has changed beyond all recognition now.There are vanishingly few nightclubs any more and they are becoming rarer. The changes in licensing laws means that it's invariably pubs that people are staying later in, even if upmarket ones that advertise themselves as 'bars' selling cocktails etc, they're still pubs. People who use these venues aren't any richer, they just use them less often, and the vast majority use taxis as there are no buses. I still have the occasional late night out with my partner and use these venues. If there were buses back in the wee small hrs we'd use them. I suspect that people who use the more traditional pubs do exactly the same as us.

Conversely when we've been out and come back at 23.00 the last buses are rammed with exactly the people you describe as being 'image conscious' using the bus because it's cheaper and simpler. Similarly we've been to friends houses before going into town and then, guess what....? We've got the bus with a whole load of other 'image conscious' people doing exactly the same as us, singles, couples and groups, as it's cheaper and simpler.

Also worth adding that 18-25s drink significantly less alcohol than my generation did, and it's not solely down to income, it's multi-factorial.
 

richw

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Wow, I hope all late night bus and train services in the UK are all operated commercially - I don't want to be subsidising anyone going to the pub.

Definitely subsidised for many late nights in cornwall. Not advertised in the way the Irish do, but 90% of users are from pubs and restaurants going home
 

squizzler

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Wow, I hope all late night bus and train services in the UK are all operated commercially - I don't want to be subsidising anyone going to the pub.

With all the drinks duty, VAT, business rates and other taxation on pub operation, chances are that it is people going to the pub who are subsidising you!

Those who are afflicted by problem drinking, as previous posters have implied, don't pay pub prices. They will go to the off-licence or supermarket.
 

Rapidash

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Any bus service in the UK which accepts the concessionary pass is basically receiving a subsidy.

Many of those who use it on a weekday and other times use it for a jolly nice day out, which often nvolves a trip to the pub or cafe.

So I'm not sure why anyone is so aghast ;)
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Any bus service in the UK which accepts the concessionary pass is basically receiving a subsidy.

Many of those who use it on a weekday and other times use it for a jolly nice day out, which often nvolves a trip to the pub or cafe.

So I'm not sure why anyone is so aghast ;)

Get your point but ENCTS isn’t a subsidy to operators (and far from it) though you are effectively subsidising pensioners so they don’t pay!

Mpthomson, shaw s hunter and Arctic Troll are absolutely on the money - the whole evening economy has changed and it has little to do with bus provision. The role of pubcos is a little overstated (independent pubs are closing at a similar rate).

That bus services have declined in the evening is a symptom not a cause in most respects. On trade sales are down, people who do go out pre-load rather than spend in pubs, and the recession and fall in real terms disposable income has had a massive impact. Smoking ban also had an effect both in UK countries and ROI.

Then you have the liberalisation of licensing laws so people can leave and return when they want (rather than being concentrated onto the 2240 or 2315 bus home) and not just the rise of Uber but LAs in many areas increasing the number of taxi licenses.

To compare with 1986 ignores the range of legislative and social changes that have occurred since then.
 

radamfi

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As a proposition, I don't find this much different from TfL instituting the Night Tube for the sake (partly or wholly) of the so-called Nighttime Economy. The Night Tube comes complete with a few bus routes providing extra connections. Some might think with TfL's budgetary problems and continuing cuts in bus frequencies that this is not money well spent. I'm expressing no personal view on this.

Evening buses in London are still probably more frequent now than in the 80s with many routes even in outer London running at a 20 minute or better frequency in the evening. Despite cuts, overnight bus routes are still very comprehensive with generally a 30 minute or better frequency. In the 80s there was only a skeleton network running on routes to/from Trafalgar Square. London must surely have one of the most intensive night bus networks in the developed world.
 

Yew

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I wish the British Government would do more to help local pubs, particularly those in small communities. A more equitable tax regime, vis a vis supermarket booze would be a place to start.

Perhaps as well, protecting landlords from excessively onerous rules imposed by the breweries. My local has been re-leased, and the new terms are much tighter, meaning the new owners are struggling even though it's fairly popular.
 

yorksrob

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Perhaps as well, protecting landlords from excessively onerous rules imposed by the breweries. My local has been re-leased, and the new terms are much tighter, meaning the new owners are struggling even though it's fairly popular.

Yes, I would certainly go along with that.
 

Hornet

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You're not Irish so no worries.

Ireland has a massive drink-driving problem, but in rural areas there's no other way of getting to the pub. Funding this got tougher drink-driving laws through. Seems a fair swap.

As for taxis, where I am a Hackney Carriage off the rank will charge me thirty quid to go a little over seven miles. People do baulk at that. Or they get an Uber instead (like I do, and I don't like Uber).

As I am an Irish Taxpayer, (and have been for the last 15 years) I do worry. And as my partners daughter has been caught up in the Cervical Cancer outrage over here, I would rather the money go to those let down by the HSE than subsidise some auld fella to go out and have a pint.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44067118

https://extra.ie/2018/05/09/news/politics/danny-healy-rae-drink-link-bus-service

P.S. Never judge a book by its cover, (to your first remark).
 
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