Station Approach Speed.

[365 Networker]

Seems rather overkill to me, especially on suburban duties where there's a high proportion of stop/start work.

30-35 mph for a 100m platform is quite reasonable in normal conditions without pushing the boat out, and as posted elsewhere a 250m platform (roughly equivalent to a 12-car train) can manage quite a bit more without risking an incident. Obviously a different matter if the signal is 'on'.

I'd say it's inviting more problems enforcing a slow approach, where this then introduces issues like possibly releasing mid-way down the platform, or having to judge a braking point in the middle of a platform where there are fewer reference points and less margin for error if the brakes don't come on as expected, or for the dreaded false sense of security to set in where the mind normalises a situation then zones out - the cause of so many SPADs.

I agree, I think it should be up to the driver to judge what the approach speed should be. 35 mph is perfectly acceptable.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

I’ll be honest and say 35mph at the ramp where stop board is 100m away seems a bit high. To be fair, I don’t actually have any of those so it’s quite hard for me to picture.
30-45mph for 250-300m platforms is the norm around here

 

[Dave1987]

I think Greater Anglia has a similar policy.

I think you might be a bit wrong there.

 

[Llama]

I’ll be honest and say 35mph at the ramp where stop board is 100m away seems a bit high. To be fair, I don’t actually have any of those so it’s quite hard for me to picture.
30-45mph for 250-300m platforms is the norm around here

Either somebody is unaware of fast 35mph is or how long 100m is, but hitting a platform that short (slightly more than four coach lengths) at that speed would need greater braking capability than the 12%g maximum that most rolling stock is capable of. The limits of adhesion of a dry clean wheel on a dry clean rail are only around 20%g.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd say it's inviting more problems enforcing a slow approach, where this then introduces issues like possibly releasing mid-way down the platform, or having to judge a braking point in the middle of a platform where there are fewer reference points and less margin for error if the brakes don't come on as expected, or for the dreaded false sense of security to set in where the mind normalises a situation then zones out - the cause of so many SPADs (*).

Related to that, I'm surprised that driving policies seem (as far as I know) to make no distinction between a platform with a red starter signal and one where the starter is off or there isn't one. Overrunning a station is less hazardous than overrunning and signal, and it's possible that requiring a more cautious approach with the signal at red would remind drivers that they were in a different situation from normal and reduce the risk of starting away when it was still red.

 

[365 Networker]

I think you might be a bit wrong there.

Oh, just heard that somewhere - but I'm happy to be corrected. Thanks for the info.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Related to that, I'm surprised that driving policies seem (as far as I know) to make no distinction between a platform with a red starter signal and one where the starter is off or there isn't one. Overrunning a station is less hazardous than overrunning and signal, and it's possible that requiring a more cautious approach with the signal at red would remind drivers that they were in a different situation from normal and reduce the risk of starting away when it was still red.

They do. Red is a far much more cautious approach.
About 20mph 180metres (AWS) away from red or 10mph if low adhesion is sensible. Whereas, with no red, it may be about 30mph at a similar point. Of course, TPWS comes into play as well and some areas are very sensitive.

Stopping at a red signal anywhere, station or no station, takes precedence and they are all (usually) treated the same.

 

[edwin_m]

They do. Red is a far much more cautious approach.
About 20mph 180metres (AWS) away from red or 10mph if low adhesion is sensible. Whereas, with no red, it may be about 30mph at a similar point. Of course, TPWS comes into play as well and some areas are very sensitive.

Stopping at a red signal anywhere, station or no station, takes precedence and they are all (usually) treated the same.

Interesting thanks. Anyone able to comment on other operators' policies? Last time I asked the question I got the impression a station overrun was often regarded as seriously as a SPAD.

 

[ComUtoR]

Related to that, I'm surprised that driving policies seem (as far as I know) to make no distinction between a platform with a red starter signal and one where the starter is off or there isn't one. Overrunning a station is less hazardous than overrunning and signal, and it's possible that requiring a more cautious approach with the signal at red would remind drivers that they were in a different situation from normal and reduce the risk of starting away when it was still red.

Approach speed towards a Red is covered by the Rulebook so you would automatically adjust your speed for the distance to the signal.

Last time I asked the question I got the impression a station overrun was often regarded as seriously as a SPAD.

An overrun can be considered quite serious as it has various competency implications. There is also an increased risk because you have a situation where passengers are expecting to get off so may egress. You also have to consider you may be asked to 'set back' into the platform; which has various safety risks too. It also comes with the risk of doors being released in error. I can understand how it can be considered to be just as serious, if not more so, than a SPAD. SPADs have lots of mitigation and there is minimal safety risks tbh. Station overrun has too much human error involved and you have little safety protection.

 

[CiderDrinker]

Interesting thanks. Anyone able to comment on other operators' policies? Last time I asked the question I got the impression a station overrun was often regarded as seriously as a SPAD.

Obviously an overrun is serious but not in the same league as a Spad, wouldn’t say that means you should come in faster though, they’re both gonna make a bad day at the office!

 

[CiderDrinker]

Approach speed towards a Red is covered by the Rulebook so you would automatically adjust your speed for the distance to the signal.



An overrun can be considered quite serious as it has various competency implications. There is also an increased risk because you have a situation where passengers are expecting to get off so may egress. You also have to consider you may be asked to 'set back' into the platform; which has various safety risks too. It also comes with the risk of doors being released in error. I can understand how it can be considered to be just as serious, if not more so, than a SPAD. SPADs have lots of mitigation and there is minimal safety risks tbh. Station overrun has too much human error involved and you have little safety protection.

SPAD’s are always going to be considered more serious and rightly so.....

 

[CiderDrinker]

They do. Red is a far much more cautious approach.
About 20mph 180metres (AWS) away from red or 10mph if low adhesion is sensible. Whereas, with no red, it may be about 30mph at a similar point. Of course, TPWS comes into play as well and some areas are very sensitive.

Stopping at a red signal anywhere, station or no station, takes precedence and they are all (usually) treated the same.

GWR use 20 at 200m now, with a specific mention not to use the AWS as a guide

 

[PudseyBearHST]

GWR use 20 at 200m now, with a specific mention not to use the AWS as a guide

Yes which is why I put it in brackets because AWS can be as close as 45m from a red signal but you will know this from route knowledge. I assume this is the reason for their policy.

 

[ComUtoR]

SPAD’s are always going to be considered more serious and rightly so.....

Whats worse. Passing a signal at danger by 1m or overshooting a platform by 30m ? Each incident must be taken on its own merit and each considered with the factors involved.

 

[CiderDrinker]

Whats worse. Passing a signal at danger by 1m or overshooting a platform by 30m ? Each incident must be taken on its own merit and each considered with the factors involved.

Only to a given degree, consequences can be much more severe with a SPAD

 

[CiderDrinker]

Yes which is why I put it in brackets because AWS can be as close as 45m from a red signal but you will know this from route knowledge. I assume this is the reason for their policy.

Yes that’s right or of course some do not have any at all

 

[aleggatta]

Whats worse. Passing a signal at danger by 1m or overshooting a platform by 30m ? Each incident must be taken on its own merit and each considered with the factors involved.

I know of an incident where a driver SPAD by 1m, he owned up to it (lack of concentration) and no safety systems were triggered (TPWS) but upon inspection of the unit we found a slightly degraded brake (which we rightly reported back). Don't know what the outcome of the drivers investigation was, but we couldn't help but feel sorry for the driver for being caught out by such an incident.

 

[ComUtoR]

Only to a given degree, consequences can be much more severe with a SPAD

How many SPADs reach a severity rating of 20+ per year ?

https://www.rssb.co.uk/standards an...health wellbeing through collaboration/spads

A new strategy for reducing risk further
Most SPADs have little or no potential to cause harm because they are the result of minor misjudgements of distance or of braking capability, or they occur at low speed. In most cases, the trains stop well within the safety overlap provided, either by the train driver or through system intervention.

 

[CiderDrinker]

How many SPADs reach a severity rating of 20+ per year ?

https://www.rssb.co.uk/standards and safety/improving safety health wellbeing/enhancing safety health wellbeing through collaboration/spads

True, how many overruns that didn’t involve having a SPAD have killed dozens of people?

 

[CiderDrinker]

How many SPADs reach a severity rating of 20+ per year ?

https://www.rssb.co.uk/standards and safety/improving safety health wellbeing/enhancing safety health wellbeing through collaboration/spads

Out of interest, are you a qualified driver? I’m not sure there’s a driver I’ve met who would have your opinion

 

[ComUtoR]

I’m not sure there’s a driver I’ve met who would have your opinion

I've met many and many Managers too.

 

[CiderDrinker]

I've met many and many Managers too.

Well anyway, like I said drivers think SPADs are more serious, as do managers, although I suppose that depends on the TOC.

 

[ComUtoR]

Out of interest, are you a qualified driver?

Why does it matter ? The quote from the RSSB also supports that SPADs have little to no potential to cause harm. As I stated. SPADs are heavily mitigated against. Yes they have a huge potential to have sever consequences but the reality is that they often don't. I'm no historian but when was the last death on the railway due to a SPAD ?

There is lots of risk out there and I understand why an overrun is taken very seriously.

 

[CiderDrinker]

Why does it matter ? The quote from the RSSB also supports that SPADs have little to no potential to cause harm. As I stated. SPADs are heavily mitigated against. Yes they have a huge potential to have sever consequences but the reality is that they often don't. I'm no historian but when was the last death on the railway due to a SPAD ?

There is lots of risk out there and I understand why an overrun is taken very seriously.

It matters because you would then understand that having a spad is a drivers nightmare. As far as managers go, the SPAD stats are those looked most closely at.
I mean no recent deaths that I know of but ladbrook killed 31 people and injured 100’s. Hey look it’s not worth getting annoyed about but the 2 just don’t compare. Most tocs have their drivers continue driving on the day of an overrun whereas a spad they are off for at least a month and quite often 6 months.
Just remember it’s ok to be wrong sometimes

 

[ComUtoR]

Well anyway, like I said drivers think SPADs are more serious, as do managers.

Because the worst case scenario is hammered into them. The PTI risk is something that has come to the forefront of our minds because of the growing number of incidents.

During any incident investigation all factors need to be considered. Someone who has a SPAD due to a momentary lapse may never have another incident. A Driver who hammers it into a station and drives around on the edge all the time is likely to have many incidents. I suspect the high number of TPWS activation's reflect the attitude towards speed and consequence. I would also state that because we have TPWS and many of which are interventions, it has greatly reduced the risk of a SPAD in the modern driving era.

 

[ComUtoR]

Just remember it’s ok to be wrong sometimes

Wrong in what way ? Because I said that I understand why an Overrrun is considered to be serious and treated just as serious as a SPAD ?

 

[CiderDrinker]

Because the worst case scenario is hammered into them. The PTI risk is something that has come to the forefront of our minds because of the growing number of incidents.

During any incident investigation all factors need to be considered. Someone who has a SPAD due to a momentary lapse may never have another incident. A Driver who hammers it into a station and drives around on the edge all the time is likely to have many incidents. I suspect the high number of TPWS activation's reflect the attitude towards speed and consequence. I would also state that because we have TPWS and many of which are interventions, it has greatly reduced the risk of a SPAD in the modern driving era.

Depends how far you go back TPWS has been around for years and years. GWR has had more TPWS lately due to the new traction nothing else.
You weren’t talking about PTI though. Trap and drag for example might well be comparable to a spad

 

[CiderDrinker]

Wrong in what way ? Because I said that I understand why an Overrrun is considered to be serious and treated just as serious as a SPAD ?

That’s the one, it’s just not true

 

[dctraindriver]

Why does it matter ? The quote from the RSSB also supports that SPADs have little to no potential to cause harm. As I stated. SPADs are heavily mitigated against. Yes they have a huge potential to have sever consequences but the reality is that they often don't. I'm no historian but when was the last death on the railway due to a SPAD ?

There is lots of risk out there and I understand why an overrun is taken very seriously.

Ladbroke Grove.

Cat A spad, off track immediately at our TOC.

Overrun, stop short, wrong route accepted taken seriously as a SOL but potentially depending on your driving history you’re still in the chair on a development plan.

All serious, but SPAD means you’re off so guess it’s higher up the severity list.

 

[ComUtoR]

off for at least a month and quite often 6 months.

I'd agree a month. Six is excessive and maybe just something at your TOC. I knew a Driver who had a SPAD and almost had a head on collision and was back driving in less.