Station platforms, it's gone too far, it's crossed a red line (literally)

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Bletchleyite

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Although in truth we could go the Amtrak way, where at some stations nobody is allowed on the platform until the incoming train has stopped, adding several minutes to each dwell time.

One thing they could do at Picc is to have staff refusing access to 13/14 from the lounge if you didn't have a ticket valid on the train showing "go to platform" or for a connection from it. They don't presently do this. I'd not be a fan, but it'd reduce the crowding a bit.
 
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Justin Smith

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Opening windows (I.e. droplights) on the mainline is a historic practice and it's a good thing it's gone. The only real loss is to enthusiasts who liked hanging out the windows. I'm sure if it were technically possible they'd have loved to put power operated centrally locked doors on coaching stock 150 years ago, but it wasn't. It is now, and that's a good thing. I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue that removal of opening windows in 2022 is a bad thing.
Yes they can. What happens if the air conditioning fails ? I can remember stories of when the OHL came down on the ECML on a hot summer's day and passengers were opening the doors using the emergency controls. Incredibly the staff were remonstrating with them even "on the offside".
There have been times when I'd have vary much wanted to stick my head out of a window when my train has been stuck outside a station and I wanted to see if my connection was in and what platform it was on. Even just wanting to take a picture of something, why should that count for nothing when the benefits of barred or none opening windows are so miniscule ? To protect one person every few years who hasn't got the brains they were born with ?

But, and this is also about the fact that because you are not bothered about opening windows that means you are in no position to lecture other people on it. Smoking bans being a good example, I detest smoking, always have done, but the way we were treated during the pandemic (trashing people's freedoms) has rather opened my eyes. The worst aspect was people having no problem trashing other people's freedom to do stuff which they weren't actually that bothered about themselves. As an example swimming is very important to me and I was stopped from doing it for about 8 months but most people, who do not swim themselves (and certainly not as seriously), thought this no particular problem.
So no, whilst I think smoking should be restricted in where people can smoke, it should be heavily taxed and people have to be over 18 to buy fags, but other than that, leave them, alone. This is supposed to be a free country.

The problem is that most members of the public, no matter what their mental health, have absolutely no clue about how railways operate, or the dangers they pose. And yes, it is actually for Network Rail, and the rail industry in general, to take reasonable measures to prevent people on their property coming to harm. But I do agree the methods at Piccadilly 13/14 are heavy-handed.
Because others may be encouraged to do the same.
This is rubbish. People are well ware of the fact if they get hit by a train they will come off much worse, and anyone with half a brain knows trains cannot come to an instant stop, just like trucks and busses and even cars come to that.
Why do some people seem to think everyone is a moron ? Don't get me wrong some people are incapable of looking after themselves, but if they really are that incapable they shouldn't be let out on their own, after all kids aren't. It is not the job of NR, or indeed society, to dumb down everything to a level where even someone with no common sense at all could not come to harm. It really isn't.

Your logic is tenuous at best. It wasn't compulsory to wear seat belts in the UK until 1983. If it had been safe not to wear seatbelts for almost 100 years, why was it no longer safe?
No it isn't the same argument at all because about 2000 people a year die on our roads and literally tens of thousands are seriously injured.
How many people die from falling off a station platform ?
The obvious question is what would you ban next ? Driving ?
It's about proportionality, and banning people from going near the edge of a station platform is a step too far (pun intended).
 
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Taunton

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Opening windows (I.e. droplights) on the mainline is a historic practice and it's a good thing it's gone. The only real loss is to enthusiasts who liked hanging out the windows. I'm sure if it were technically possible they'd have loved to put power operated centrally locked doors on coaching stock 150 years ago, but it wasn't. It is now, and that's a good thing. I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue that removal of opening windows in 2022 is a bad thing.
Yes we can. I can open the windows of my car while going along, despite it having air conditioning. Unlike seat belts it is not associated with fatality analysis.

In case we have forgotten, the two prominent passenger fatalities at windows of recent years (Streatham and Bath) were BOTH caused by Network Rail's inability to maintain the proper structure gauge defined for trains, long term at both locations, which allowed structures to encroach on the long-agreed clearance. I suppose it was to avoid the embarrassment of this coming out that there was a great diversionary tactic to try and stick this on the passenger/TOC. To allow trees to grow so close to the loading gauge (at Bath) that carriages were constantly scraped by them is just incompetent. So was the reballasting (at Streatham) which changed the alignment and put the signal bracket foul of the loading gauge, which nobody noticed either at the time or subsequently. The much vaunted and significantly expensive Network Measurement Train is apparently quite incapable of measuring whether anything is impinging on the structure gauge.
 

Justin Smith

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Are you a qualified expert on every kind of hazard then? You have the requisite knowledge and experience to competently review any risk assessment in every environment?
This answer, and what you have said earlier, seems to imply you are a member of the "we cannot be too safe" lobby.
There is a potential downside to this actually in that more and more people will think anything they are actually allowed to do cannot be dangerous. They assume everything has been made safe and so these kind of people really cannot do their own risk assessments, which, ironically, puts them in more danger.....
 
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Getting back to the actual question:

I believe the RED lines are there to allow room for disembarking passengers to get off the train & move along the platform without being barged by boarding passengers racing for a seat
 

Starmill

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It's definitely less safe now than it was before 2018 when they were installed because the crushing on the platform means people can't pass along it, so they all end up stuck by the stairs.

What they could have done was hatch the area outside of the current yellow line in order to make it clearer that you shouldn't be waiting there. They shouldn't have tried to bring it back at all, and this should be removed.
 

bramling

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Your logic is tenuous at best. It wasn't compulsory to wear seat belts in the UK until 1983. If it had been safe not to wear seatbelts for almost 100 years, why was it no longer safe?

Opening windows (I.e. droplights) on the mainline is a historic practice and it's a good thing it's gone. The only real loss is to enthusiasts who liked hanging out the windows. I'm sure if it were technically possible they'd have loved to put power operated centrally locked doors on coaching stock 150 years ago, but it wasn't. It is now, and that's a good thing. I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue that removal of opening windows in 2022 is a bad thing.

On the latter point, anyone who’s been stuck on a train in hot weather where the air conditioning is inoperative for an extended period might reasonably argue a case for opening windows. Indeed lack of such was a contributory factor in the Kentish Town incident where people were repeatedly using the door egresses to gain ventilation.
 

Bletchleyite

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I believe the RED lines are there to allow room for disembarking passengers to get off the train & move along the platform without being barged by boarding passengers racing for a seat

They don't achieve that.

On the latter point, anyone who’s been stuck on a train in hot weather where the air conditioning is inoperative for an extended period might reasonably argue a case for opening windows. Indeed lack of such was a contributory factor in the Kentish Town incident where people were repeatedly using the door egresses to gain ventilation.

That can also be fixed by providing enough batteries to run the HVAC (and toilets) for a reasonably long period, or as per 80x a diesel generator.
 

Taunton

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Getting back to the actual question:

I believe the RED lines are there to allow room for disembarking passengers to get off the train & move along the platform without being barged by boarding passengers racing for a seat
This issue, which can be seen at some stations elsewhere but is particularly prominent here, is not caused by "too many passengers", nor "indisciplined passengers", or similar excuses, but by failure to provide sufficient carriages for the passengers who have bought valid tickets for the trip, people racing to get a seat, or sometimes to even get on board at all. If 4 cars were provided instead of 2, or 6 instead of 4, this would not be an issue, nor would the resulting excessive dwell time.

I well remember arriving at Sheffield about 4pm one afternoon, in a late, full, single car 153, where upwards of 100 people were waiting for the return working, most of whom appeared to be daily regulars. Passengers had considerable difficulty disembarking through the throng at the two doors, but if anyone showed any conventional politesse they then wouldn't get home.
 

bramling

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They don't achieve that.



That can also be fixed by providing enough batteries to run the HVAC (and toilets) for a reasonably long period, or as per 80x a diesel generator.

On the latter, whilst I’m sure that’s the case, too many experiences with dubious air conditioning on trains to trust the industry to keep it functional. In Wales earlier this week pretty much every single 158 I have seen has had windows open, which tells its own story.

The mainline railway industry doesn’t really take the issue of hot trains in hot weather seriously enough. Only LU seems to give consideration to people being stuck on hot trains. Without wearing any enthusiast hat, I’d *much* rather be exposed to the minimal risk of a droplight window, where the risk is entirely within my control, to that of being stuck on a sealed hot train, where the risk is completely beyond my control unless resorting to extreme measures like operating an egress device, the consequences of which are more dangerous.
 

Taunton

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That can also be fixed by providing enough batteries to run the HVAC (and toilets) for a reasonably long period, or as per 80x a diesel generator.
If it was detected that the manufacturer had supplied batteries that were not up to spec, this would help. Apparently the Kentish Town train load shed the battery supply upon initial breakdown.
 

Bletchleyite

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On the latter, whilst I’m sure that’s the case, too many experiences with dubious air conditioning on trains to trust the industry to keep it functional. In Wales earlier this week pretty much every single 158 I have seen has had windows open, which tells its own story.

The 158 aircon system needs to be replaced. It was designed for CFCs and has never worked properly since they were phased out. Chiltern seem to have installed effective aircon on their 165s, so I don't see why other TOCs seem to find it a bit hard.

The mainline railway industry doesn’t really take the issue of hot trains in hot weather seriously enough. Only LU seems to give consideration to people being stuck on hot trains. Without wearing any enthusiast hat, I’d *much* rather be exposed to the minimal risk of a droplight window, where the risk is entirely within my control, to that of being stuck on a sealed hot train, where the risk is completely beyond my control unless resorting to extreme measures like operating an egress device, the consequences of which are more dangerous.

The problem with being stationary is that droplights don't really help at all. Trains with opening windows are only pleasant when moving.
 

zwk500

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This answer, and what you have said earlier, seems to imply you are a member of the "we cannot be too safe" lobby.
I'm a member of the 'better safe than sorry' lobby, which is not the same thing.
There is a potential downside to this actually in that more and more people will think anything they are actually allowed to do cannot be dangerous. They assume everything has been made safe and so these kind of people really cannot do their own risk assessments, which, ironically, puts them in more danger.....
I'm talking about in particular environments there may be risks that a non-expert user will be unaware of. The railway is one, hence why you need to be trained to work on it. I'm not saying that Piccadilly have got their strategy 100% right, by any means. But there is a proper way to challenge restrictions and an improper one.
 

SCDR_WMR

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No, you have that 180 degrees wrong. I DO want to engage in facts. It is the H&S "keep us safe" zealots who do not want facts, they're happy with 'better be safe than sorry'.
How many people, say in the last 10 years, have been killed falling onto the track at Manchester Piccadilly ?
Sorry if already mentioned, but number of deaths by falling onto the track is completely irrelevant.

Lines have been moved due to the number of incidents or near misses at the station that have been reported.

It should be common sense to stand away from the edge of the platform, yet I can tell you from experience it most definitely isn't.

Some stations are a lot more 'proactive' if you will, Crewe is quite militant, especially when dispatching a train and I can understand that given how many passengers there can be on some platforms and I certainly wouldn't want someone to accidentally fall against the train as I'm leaving or to have their bag caught on the train somehow.

It happens. Near misses are a daily occurrence. Far better to be over zealous than have fatalities

Not forgetting that around Britain there are thousands, possibly millions, of miles of roadside pavements that have lorries, buses and cars passing within a foot or two, often at more than 25mph, yet we don't find it necessary to paint yellow and red lines down all of those. Which is just as well, since if lines were to be painted at the same offset as those in the OP, most pavements would have to be closed completely.
All of those modes of transport has wing mirrors which would most likely come into contact with rather than the bulk of the vehicle.

Also, who drives so close to the pavement that their side would potentially come into contact with people on the pavement - other than buses as they stop at a bus stop say. Trains are nowhere near people other than on platforms, somewhere they need to be close to the edge
 

Bletchleyite

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All of those modes of transport has wing mirrors which would most likely come into contact with rather than the bulk of the vehicle.

Also, who drives so close to the pavement that their side would potentially come into contact with people on the pavement - other than buses as they stop at a bus stop say. Trains are nowhere near people other than on platforms, somewhere they need to be close to the edge

I have seen someone belted round the head by a bus wing mirror in London. Only once, though.

The provision of cameras instead of large mirrors is removing this danger.
 

DelW

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All of those modes of transport has wing mirrors which would most likely come into contact with rather than the bulk of the vehicle.

Also, who drives so close to the pavement that their side would potentially come into contact with people on the pavement - other than buses as they stop at a bus stop say. Trains are nowhere near people other than on platforms, somewhere they need to be close to the edge
It's getting a bit off topic, but I'd suggest that those mirrors increase the risk on pavements, in comparison with on railway platforms. There's a narrow road near me where I have had to dodge mirrors, despite being on the pavement, when two large vans were passing each other. The driver was looking at his offside and I don't think he'd even seen that I was there. Vans or lorries often drive right up against or even onto the pavement there, and it's a B road, not just estate access.
 

MikeWM

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I'm not sure anyone has actually answered the original question, which is what reason there is that the red lines are 'needed' as well as the yellow.

I was at Stevenage yesterday and a yellow line on the platform was apparently sufficient to protect us from the LNER and GN trains passing through at 110mph or similar.

If the yelllow lines are too close to the edge for whatever risk assessment, why not just move them in a bit? Adding some new sets of lines in a colour not used anywhere else and expecting people to work out what they are for, and be barked at if they fail, just seems stupid.
 

Starmill

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That can also be fixed by providing enough batteries to run the HVAC (and toilets) for a reasonably long period, or as per 80x a diesel generator.
I'm pretty sure such batteries are fitted to the 803s as well in place of a diesel generator.

The 158 aircon system needs to be replaced.
It's too late for this now. They've only got about eight years worth of life left in them before they really need to go. The ROSCOs won't invest with such a short payback period.
 

NSEFAN

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I'm not sure anyone has actually answered the original question, which is what reason there is that the red lines are 'needed' as well as the yellow.

I was at Stevenage yesterday and a yellow line on the platform was apparently sufficient to protect us from the LNER and GN trains passing through at 110mph or similar.

If the yelllow lines are too close to the edge for whatever risk assessment, why not just move them in a bit? Adding some new sets of lines in a colour not used anywhere else and expecting people to work out what they are for, and be barked at if they fail, just seems stupid.
Stevenage has the benefit that most trains will be at least 6-8 carriages in length, and the platforms are quite wide. Manchester Piccadilly seems to suffer from too many passengers trying to fit in too few carriages in too small a space.

It might be that adding red lines was a cheap and cheerful ‘fix’ to the problem. Saves having to take up any existing paint. It’s arguably a symptom of a wider problem, that the region gets bugger-all investment in its railway.
 

Bletchleyite

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If the yelllow lines are too close to the edge for whatever risk assessment, why not just move them in a bit? Adding some new sets of lines in a colour not used anywhere else and expecting people to work out what they are for, and be barked at if they fail, just seems stupid.

Agreed. The yellow line at Picc now serves no purpose at all.
 

Mcr Warrior

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I have seen someone belted round the head by a bus wing mirror in London. Only once, though.
I might just have been that person. London Bridge bus station, c. 2005. Was on the edge of the bus station pavement as a 149 bus snook in behind me. And, yes, it hurt!

Only happened the once, though! :oops:
 

Bletchleyite

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I might just have been that person. London Bridge bus station, c. 2005. Was on the edge of the bus station pavement as a 149 bus snook in behind me. And, yes, it hurt!

Actually could well have been - the year sounds about right! I forget exactly where it was. I doubt it happens often.

Only happened the once, though! :oops:

Since seeing that I have been much more careful to avoid them.
 

skyhigh

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The 158 aircon system needs to be replaced. It was designed for CFCs and has never worked properly since they were phased out.
You've said this a few times but it's not really true. The system has very long pipework that due to the placing of equipment and flex in the body is a nightmare for pinhole leaks which are hard to find and fix - this would be exactly the same if the original refrigerant was used. A lot of control electronics have been upgraded over the years. Another issue is that the hydrostatic system is potentially a bit underpowered but again nothing to do with CFCs.
On the latter point, anyone who’s been stuck on a train in hot weather where the air conditioning is inoperative for an extended period might reasonably argue a case for opening windows. Indeed lack of such was a contributory factor in the Kentish Town incident where people were repeatedly using the door egresses to gain ventilation.
For the avoidance of doubt - I'm not suggesting opening windows are an issue (in fact I think they are a sensible bit of design as a backup - something like a 158 where the windows are normally locked but have an automatic release if it's detected the HVAC isn't working would be good on new stock). I'm saying large open windows in the form of droplights are a poor idea, and you'd loose nothing by having opening windows in the saloon but power operated sealed doors.

But, and this is also about the fact that because you are not bothered about opening windows that means you are in no position to lecture other people on it.
Hmmmm. In a previous job I dealt with body recovery from rail incidents. Maybe having seen what I've seen I do have a reason to be anti-droplights. At the same time you seem perfectly content lecturing others why you think things you like shouldn't change!
 

miklcct

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Stevenage has the benefit that most trains will be at least 6-8 carriages in length, and the platforms are quite wide. Manchester Piccadilly seems to suffer from too many passengers trying to fit in too few carriages in too small a space.
I don't understand this. If you force passengers to stay within the red boxes won't it be much more overcrowded on the platform? Or is it to provide clear paths for alighting passengers?

All platforms should be designed to cater for a train load of passengers waiting behind the yellow line, right?
 

John Luxton

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I was waiting for a train on Platform 14 Manchester Piccadilly today. A container train stopped in the platform and I was looking at its brake rigging, just out of interest, as you do.
Next thing some railway employee was shouting at me to "step back behind the red line".
I must admit that, particularly after the pandemic, I am getting heartily sick of people telling me what to do especially when I can see no good reason for it so I only just managed to stop myself "questioning" this order in a forthright way, but it wound me up big time.
What is this red line anyway ?
Years ago they painted yellow lines to indicate a safe distance from the edge of a platform where fast trains pass, but there are no fast trains at Manchester Piccadilly anyway !
Now it appears to be an edict, stay behind the yellow line when a train (however slow) is coming.
But Piccadilly has now gone even further and has red lines (two sets in fact - see picture) even further back and passengers must not, apparently, cross them unless boarding a train.
Where has this come from ?
Is there any railway byelaw they are using here ?
Have they any right to demand any of this ?

View attachment 116443
I have only been to Piccadilly for the first time in 40 years back in April. I must say I had not paid much attention to the lines as I didn't have need to linger as my train came in as I reached the platform.

However, having recently returned to rail travel beyond the odd country branch line for the first time in decades I have noticed the positive advantages of lines on platforms, particularly yellow lines, if photographing an approaching train there is less chance of someone stepping forward and spoiling your shot. That is a good thing about lines, plus it must obviously making dispatching a train easier for guard and platform staff.

The really negative aspect of my return to the rails for long distance travel is the lack of opening windows to poke your camera lens out of.

In the last month I have had both a Freedom and Wales and a North West England Rover. So many photo opportunities which once could have been snapped from the train now lost especially on Scenic lines such as Central Wales and S&C.

When I was a youngster I took so many photos from open windows. No I didn't lean right out - just put the camera lens out. Many digital cameras now with rotating and tilting screens would make this even easier - but now all you get are disappointing through the windows shots with errant reflections and a lack of definition as there are two layers of glass in front of the camera lens.

Its the lack of opening windows I find the major bug bear to be honest.
 

Agent_Squash

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Picadillys platforms are messy, but the red line helps speed up people alighting, in theory anyway, and keeps the public away when trains are passing and prevents people being accidently knocked off the platform edge during crowding. It's not ideal, but it's removal would not be an improvement.

Its removal for a realistic, long term improvement most definitely would be...
 

Watershed

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All platforms should be designed to cater for a train load of passengers waiting behind the yellow line, right?
Hahaha, wishful thinking I'm afraid. I hardly think that BR were envisaging today's passenger loads when they rebuilt the Castlefield corridor platforms in the 1960s... Unfortunately it would cost an arm and a leg to fix it now, so it's probably going to be that way forever.

I have only been to Piccadilly for the first time in 40 years back in April. I must say I had not paid much attention to the lines as I didn't have need to linger as my train came in as I reached the platform.

However, having recently returned to rail travel beyond the odd country branch line for the first time in decades I have noticed the positive advantages of lines on platforms, particularly yellow lines, if photographing an approaching train there is less chance of someone stepping forward and spoiling your shot. That is a good thing about lines, plus it must obviously making dispatching a train easier for guard and platform staff.

The really negative aspect of my return to the rails for long distance travel is the lack of opening windows to poke your camera lens out of.

In the last month I have had both a Freedom and Wales and a North West England Rover. So many photo opportunities which once could have been snapped from the train now lost especially on Scenic lines such as Central Wales and S&C.

When I was a youngster I took so many photos from open windows. No I didn't lean right out - just put the camera lens out. Many digital cameras now with rotating and tilting screens would make this even easier - but now all you get are disappointing through the windows shots with errant reflections and a lack of definition as there are two layers of glass in front of the camera lens.

Its the lack of opening windows I find the major bug bear to be honest.
Agree, the reflections from interior lighting and adjacent passengers can ruin a good shot. I've managed to get some great shots by lowering my phone through a hopper window but obviously it's a very risky business!

That said, whilst it's a shame, an ability to take good pictures is well down my priority list for features that a train should have - unless it's an observation carriage for instance.
 

flixtonman

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Are Platform Edge Screens/Doors on Platforms 13 and 14 at Manchester Piccadilly a possibility?
 
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