• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Stations and lines not used to their full potential

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
968
Location
Blackpool south Shore
Have you ever travelled on the Newquay branch?

It takes trains three quarters of an hour to get 20 miles between Par and Newquay - you can drive Newquay to Truro in little more than half that time, St Austell a good 10 minutes quicker, and Plymouth almost an hour faster - and Par is a good-old-fashioned Victorian junction station in a small village that isn't a destination in itself anyway.

The line may have its uses on summer Saturdays but outside the holiday season it is simply a financial basket case and running more trains up and down will not change that. To speed up journey times would require a brand new line, which is just not going to happen.

If the link from St Dennis Junction to Drinnick Mill were rebuilt to allow trains to reach St Austell that might make it marginally more attractive, but would do little to improve the speed of the trains given the lines' origins as cheaply-built mineral tramways for china clay and other local mining operations.

Just because 20,000 people live in a place does not mean it is a natural market for rail if the railway does not go to the places that people want to get to or takes forever to do so on a roundabout route and requires a change of trains - places far smaller than Newquay where the railway provides the best transport link to places people do want to go generate far more rail traffic, year-round, than Newquay ever will.

The line is open, current traffic is 100,000 a year, so not much risk of hitting a million any time soon, whether or not pots of money were sunk in to make only marginal improvements that will not change the fundamental issues with the line.

And why bother running through trains to Falmouth - and from where, Plymouth/London/the North? The overwhelming majority of the traffic, all year round, is local and the service is half-hourly most of the day, so people travelling further afield don't have long waits for connections at Truro and the extra Cornish main line services will likely deliver more and better connections anyway.
A Newquay to Falmouth service could have possibilities.
Connecting it with St Austell, and Truro coast to coast.
Newquay services were cut in the 80's. Station reduced to one platform. Newquay signalbox closed. St Dennis Junction passing loop closed.
The only passing loops open is Goonbarrow Junction, which could go at any time, and St Blazey station signal box. St Blazey box controls 2 cctv level crossings - Middleway and st Blazey Bridge level crossings.
This now means a poor service, and there is very few if any local services on a Summer Saturday. They could have kept 2/3 platforms at Newquay, with a token machine. The guard could have locked his train in one platform, changing the points, locking lever, and return the token. But they cut it all up.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,230
A Newquay to Falmouth service could have possibilities.
Connecting it with St Austell, and Truro coast to coast.
Newquay services were cut in the 80's. Station reduced to one platform. Newquay signalbox closed. St Dennis Junction passing loop closed.
The only passing loops open is Goonbarrow Junction, which could go at any time, and St Blazey station signal box. St Blazey box controls 2 cctv level crossings - Middleway and st Blazey Bridge level crossings.
This now means a poor service, and there is very few if any local services on a Summer Saturday. They could have kept 2/3 platforms at Newquay, with a token machine. The guard could have locked his train in one platform, changing the points, locking lever, and return the token. But they cut it all up.

Possibilities for what?

An interminably slow journey, linking two places that few people want to travel between, that just happen, by a round-the-houses route, complete with reversal, to be connected by steel rails. And would result in the timetable on both branches and the main line falling into chaos for several hours at a time whenever there was any disruption.

Did you miss the bit in my previous post about the time it takes to drive between Newquay and Truro, compared with the time it takes to get by train to Par, never mind changing trains and then travelling on to Truro? Even the bus wins hands down. Nor would the slickest reversal of a dmu save much time compared with the nine or 10-minute connections at Par that apply now.

With lots more expensive infrastructure that would almost never be used outside summer Saturdays, you could indeed lock in trains at Newquay and stop at the intermediate halts on those Saturdays. It still won't make up for the fundamental issues with the line - the low speeds and the fact that it connects with the main line at Par, not to any of the major towns in Cornwall that people travelling locally want to go to.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
I think a reasonably quick when would be to re-open the Parkandillack branch to passenger services and to re-open the link through to the Newquay branch at St. Columb Road. This would at least give a much quicker rail-based journey from Newquay to St Austell, the natural economic 'hub' of the local area, and serve St Dennis station along the way.

Part of the problem is that, for locals, the train service from Newquay most days takes them nowhere at all useful. Opening a direct connection to St Austell would help resolve this, perhaps with some modest park & ride facility in Newquay.

I do agree Newquay to Truro or Falmouth will never be competitive by rail compared to road - you're probably looking at an end to end journey time at at least 1 hr 45 mins or so Newquay-Falmouth!
 

TBY-Paul

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2013
Messages
327
I wonder if the real benefit from the Stockton-Ferryhilll line would be to facilitate faster journeys from the Middlesbrough area to Durham and Newcastle

Middlesbrough is going to get faster journey times along the Stillington line once the "Northern Connect" services start using the line. I was thinking more of places like Yarm.

Yarm (125,140 pass, 2014/15) has the potential to increase it's passenger numbers, if, it had a direct service to Eaglescliffe, Stockton, Durham, Newcastle and/or The Durham coast.

Yarm currently has scope to make the car park much larger, the way planning apps get approved in the Yarm area, that opportunity will soon be gone, I fully expect Yarm Station to be surrounded by housing with-in the next 10-15 years.

I was at a local Transport forum earlier this year, and the Northern Rail (as was) representative said Network rail don't allow Northern (rail) to run services between York & the North East, I assumed he meant, not take up paths, especially between Northallerton & York.

If, the line from Northallerton, via Yarm to Ferryhill was upgraded, you could, for example, send VTEC King's Cross-Newcastle stopper or Cross-Country services along this route, calling at Eaglescliffe or Stockton, freeing up quicker paths* to Edinburgh via Darlington. Ideally if this was done along with the re-opening of Leamside the options could be limitless.

* this assumes that a HS2 line is not going to get built North of York, and the North East has to make do with a speeded up ECML, using CC stock, in some form or another.
 

Parallel

Established Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
3,927
Agree with this. But what about Pantyffynon and Llandeilo? I'm not sure about Ffairfach, however...

IMO the shuttles could just have the same calling pattern as the existing through trains, if the set up allows. Is there any reason why Pantyffynon isn't a request stop? Is it something to do with the nearby level crossing, or is it a token exchange point?

Interestingly when I last used the service, it was at its busiest either ends of the line, but we stopped at every request stop between Llandrindod and Llanwrtyd!
 

backontrack

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
6,383
Location
The UK
IMO the shuttles could just have the same calling pattern as the existing through trains, if the set up allows. Is there any reason why Pantyffynon isn't a request stop? Is it something to do with the nearby level crossing, or is it a token exchange point?

Interestingly when I last used the service, it was at its busiest either ends of the line, but we stopped at every request stop between Llandrindod and Llanwrtyd!

Pantyffynon is a token exchange point, and it also signals the entire line. I've always been baffled by the fact that it's a request stop and Pontarddulais isn't...
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,382
Here's a project which needs no new track and no new stations (still needs stock of course, and maybe tricky pathing here and there).

(Manchester) - Stockport - Altrincham - Knutsford - Northwich - Runcorn - LSP - Lime Street.
 

Requeststop

Member
Joined
21 Jan 2012
Messages
944
Location
Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea
I think a reasonably quick when would be to re-open the Parkandillack branch to passenger services and to re-open the link through to the Newquay branch at St. Columb Road. This would at least give a much quicker rail-based journey from Newquay to St Austell, the natural economic 'hub' of the local area, and serve St Dennis station along the way.

Part of the problem is that, for locals, the train service from Newquay most days takes them nowhere at all useful. Opening a direct connection to St Austell would help resolve this, perhaps with some modest park & ride facility in Newquay.

I do agree Newquay to Truro or Falmouth will never be competitive by rail compared to road - you're probably looking at an end to end journey time at at least 1 hr 45 mins or so Newquay-Falmouth!

I do agree with a lot of what you say; Yes the Newquay Branch (The Atlantic Coast! Snort) is very poorly used and no wonder! Hardly any trains at times that people want to use and some services from Par that leave for Newquay 3-4 minutes before a train from Penzance arrives! And those request stops!!! A direct line to St. Austell would be very useful and a link to Penzance/Falmouth I think even more so. Now before anyone shouts me down, I do believe that a Newquay/Penzance, Falmouth/Newquay service would be popular. Not because people want to travel the whole line but sections of line could be popular.

I mean there is a weird service in the North; Doncaster-Lincoln. Not direct but via Sheffield, Worksop, Retford and Gainsborough. There is a direct route Doncaster Lincoln. Amalgamating each section gives the service use/income. I believe a Penzance/Falmouth - Newquay service can have the same effect and boost the Atlantic Coast! (Snort) line, the same way that the Falmouth and St Ives branch have been boosted and grown in recent years due to some imaginative thinking. Maybe I'll drop Bert Biscoe a line.
 
Last edited:

kegdr

Member
Joined
3 Apr 2016
Messages
37
Location
Helston, Cornwall
Is the Falmouth market that different to Penzance (which does have lots of long distance services a day)?

Penzance has the added traffic of those who will be going onwards to the Isles of Scilly, but other than that I don't think so - from my limited experience, most people in Cornwall get on at Truro.

Difference though is that Penzance is the terminus of the main line, rather than being a branch line. I imagine it's a lot easier to justify a main line terminus-terminus (IE PAD-PNZ) service even if the service at one end is not used to the full than specifically running a service onto a branch line which is already served by hourly trains to the main line at Truro.
 
Last edited:

Altfish

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2014
Messages
1,065
Location
Altrincham
Here's a project which needs no new track and no new stations (still needs stock of course, and maybe tricky pathing here and there).

(Manchester) - Stockport - Altrincham - Knutsford - Northwich - Runcorn - LSP - Lime Street.

Better would be
(Manchester) - Stockport - Altrincham - Knutsford - Northwich - Middlewich - Sandbach - Crewe
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,282
I hadn't realised until discussing it with family recently that Truro only had a population of 23,000. As such through trains from Newquay could be beneficial, but probably on a 1 train per two or three hours (possibly an extra few in the peaks.

Mix into that three or four direct trains to/from London a day (focusing on the peaks to get to/from Plymouth, and you could have a well used line.
 

Julia

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2011
Messages
293
I'd suggest some of the routes around Cambridge.

Employment growth around Cambridge has been phenomenal over recent years, but so has that of the traffic congestion. Meanwhile, most routes into Cambridge have a number of lightly used wayside halt-type stations (Shepreth, Great Chesterford, Kennett, Manea, Lakenheath,...)

The new station at Cambridge North, plus the potential new station to serve Addenbrooke's Hospital would mean that housing development could be targeted around some of these lightly used stations, which would be superbly well-connected to employment opportunities in Cambridge itself, perhaps with a strategy of moving from 1 train per hour to 2tph on radial routes.

When Cambridge North opens, I expect my commute from SNO to the science park to be quicker via PBO by rail than the coach to the city centre, or via HUN and the bus way. That's a sad reflection of how dysfunctional the city's road network is despite millions thrown at it.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,230
I hadn't realised until discussing it with family recently that Truro only had a population of 23,000. As such through trains from Newquay could be beneficial, but probably on a 1 train per two or three hours (possibly an extra few in the peaks.

I'm sorry, but how would they be beneficial? As I and Ianno87 have both noted above, any rail journey time between Newquay and Truro is never going to be competitive with a car or bus.

It takes 50 minutes for a train - any train, dmu, HST or Voyager - to get between Par and Newquay. A train from London to Newquay covers 260 miles in about four hours, 20 minutes. The last 20 miles up the branch take another 50 minutes.

If you want an early morning peak train - or trains - from Newquay, then a train plus driver and guard have to spend 50 minutes getting to Newquay - and that assumes they are all at Par to begin with - wait for 10 minutes, then set off back again with a near-empty train that will not have many passengers on board as the train is going to a place no one wants to go to and getting from there to places people might want to go takes a long time - another hour in the case of Plymouth or connecting time plus 25 minutes to get to Truro - a timing which a through train would make little difference to.

And all this tieing up an expensive train and crew for two hours - plus a likely earlier start for the Goonbarrow signaller - earning the thick end of nothing at all for the railway.

Mix into that three or four direct trains to/from London a day (focusing on the peaks to get to/from Plymouth, and you could have a well used line.

How would you run peak trains to both Plymouth and Truro, given the limitations of the infrastructure?

Even if you reopened the loop at St Dennis that will not speed up services, just increase flexibility and capacity marginally - and you also have to allow for china clay workings - and to get a train of the type required for a London service to Newquay would mean it running all the way from the depot in Plymouth, so that's another expensive train and crew tied up for four hours - yes, that's right - four hours - to get from Plymouth to Newquay and back again to provide a service of near enough zero value outside the holiday season, with next to no one on board until it got all the way back to Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard - and most of them would only be going into Plymouth.

As for three or four direct trains a day to/from London all year round, this has got to be some sort of wind-up. No one is going to waste expensive AT300s wandering across the Cornish moors at low speed for hours every day, with precious few passengers on board most of the year.

You will never have a well-used line unless it is completely rebuilt to modern standards, at huge expense, to slash journey times - never going to happen - or diverted to St Austell - and even then it is hard to see that the cost-benefit ratio would justify the costs involved in that scheme either. All these lines were built for freight trains, not passenger services, and while they were a great improvement on horses and carts, the builders weren't that bothered about the needs of 21st century passenger services.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,282
I'm sorry, but how would they be beneficial? As I and Ianno87 have both noted above, any rail journey time between Newquay and Truro is never going to be competitive with a car or bus.

It takes 50 minutes for a train - any train, dmu, HST or Voyager - to get between Par and Newquay. A train from London to Newquay covers 260 miles in about four hours, 20 minutes. The last 20 miles up the branch take another 50 minutes.

If you want an early morning peak train - or trains - from Newquay, then a train plus driver and guard have to spend 50 minutes getting to Newquay - and that assumes they are all at Par to begin with - wait for 10 minutes, then set off back again with a near-empty train that will not have many passengers on board as the train is going to a place no one wants to go to and getting from there to places people might want to go takes a long time - another hour in the case of Plymouth or connecting time plus 25 minutes to get to Truro - a timing which a through train would make little difference to.

And all this tieing up an expensive train and crew for two hours - plus a likely earlier start for the Goonbarrow signaller - earning the thick end of nothing at all for the railway.


How would you run peak trains to both Plymouth and Truro, given the limitations of the infrastructure?

Even if you reopened the loop at St Dennis that will not speed up services, just increase flexibility and capacity marginally - and you also have to allow for china clay workings - and to get a train of the type required for a London service to Newquay would mean it running all the way from the depot in Plymouth, so that's another expensive train and crew tied up for four hours - yes, that's right - four hours - to get from Plymouth to Newquay and back again to provide a service of near enough zero value outside the holiday season, with next to no one on board until it got all the way back to Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard - and most of them would only be going into Plymouth.

As for three or four direct trains a day to/from London all year round, this has got to be some sort of wind-up. No one is going to waste expensive AT300s wandering across the Cornish moors at low speed for hours every day, with precious few passengers on board most of the year.

You will never have a well-used line unless it is completely rebuilt to modern standards, at huge expense, to slash journey times - never going to happen - or diverted to St Austell - and even then it is hard to see that the cost-benefit ratio would justify the costs involved in that scheme either. All these lines were built for freight trains, not passenger services, and while they were a great improvement on horses and carts, the builders weren't that bothered about the needs of 21st century passenger services.

Given that I started my post with how low the population in Truro is and stated that it "COULD" be beneficial but only on a fairly low frequency (given the low population densities), I wasn't really expecting much to change.

The problem with saying that no one will use it because the buses are faster is that if you extend that logic to all the railways in the SW then you could argue that almost no one would use them west of Exeter. However looking at bus journey planners for Newquay to Truro they vary from just under an hour (I've only found one service a day that does that) to not that much different from the train at 1 our 24 (most appear to be 65 minutes to 80 minutes there are a few direct services but many require a change vs 82 minutes to 100 minutes with one change for the trains), as such time may not be that big of a factor (depending on when the trains are during any given hour). However with a direct train (allowing a 5 minute reversal at Par) the train could be consistently 80 minutes, which means that it's not too dissimilar to some of the slower buses even without changing the current tracks. The big problem with buses is that they are prone to not turn up and/or if they are running late there really is no information, as such there are a lot of people who would use trains but wouldn't use buses or would only use buses if it was a lot better (especially on a journey of about an hour or longer).

I also disagree that it would take as long as four hours (although it would still be a fairly long time) to get from Plymouth to Newquay and back as there are services (even with the time for a change at Par) that do it in 1:44, as such it would probably not happen without improvements to reduce that journey time.

The possible advantage of using 80x's to provide direct services to London is that it could free up the 14x or 15x unit to be used elsewhere whilst potentially attracting more people to use the service (assuming that all the services were run by 80x's), would it be more expensive, yes, would it make Newquay easier to get to, yes, would ticket prices cover the extra costs, not currently over the course of the year and you are right during the winter not by a long way - however, could the extra income from the 14x or 15x being more intensively used elsewhere cover the extra costs to justify doing it especially with all the extra potential custom that could be generated in the summer months (especially with the extra revenue from people coming all the way from London) and you may start to be getting in to the realms of it being justifiable. Additionally, it could be possible to alter the timetable so that the trains a different pattern rather there and back several times, which may attract more people to the line.

However if changes were to happen (understandably at a cost) then the sorts of services I listed could attract people to use the railway who otherwise don't at present because of the poor timetabling the line.
 

Holly

Member
Joined
20 May 2011
Messages
783
Here's a project which needs no new track and no new stations (still needs stock of course, and maybe tricky pathing here and there).
(Manchester) - Stockport - Altrincham - Knutsford - Northwich - Runcorn - LSP - Lime Street.
Northwich-Greenbank-Warrington-NewtonLeWillows-Manchester

Needs 3 miles of electrification.
Reinstatement of the long ago removed trailing crossover North of Acton Bridge station would help with pathing.
 
Last edited:

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,230
Given that I started my post with how low the population in Truro is and stated that it "COULD" be beneficial but only on a fairly low frequency (given the low population densities), I wasn't really expecting much to change.

And it's not going to.

The problem with saying that no one will use it because the buses are faster is that if you extend that logic to all the railways in the SW then you could argue that almost no one would use them west of Exeter. However looking at bus journey planners for Newquay to Truro they vary from just under an hour (I've only found one service a day that does that) to not that much different from the train at 1 our 24 (most appear to be 65 minutes to 80 minutes there are a few direct services but many require a change vs 82 minutes to 100 minutes with one change for the trains), as such time may not be that big of a factor (depending on when the trains are during any given hour). However with a direct train (allowing a 5 minute reversal at Par) the train could be consistently 80 minutes, which means that it's not too dissimilar to some of the slower buses even without changing the current tracks. The big problem with buses is that they are prone to not turn up and/or if they are running late there really is no information, as such there are a lot of people who would use trains but wouldn't use buses or would only use buses if it was a lot better (especially on a journey of about an hour or longer).

Fact - the buses are faster and the fastest buses cut 15 minutes off even the best you could hope for with a through train.

Never mind that most people doing the journey probably use cars anyway and do it in 30 minutes most of the year, wiping the floor with the bus, never mind your 80-minute through train.

I also disagree that it would take as long as four hours (although it would still be a fairly long time) to get from Plymouth to Newquay and back as there are services (even with the time for a change at Par) that do it in 1:44, as such it would probably not happen without improvements to reduce that journey time.

Three-and-a-half hours - plus turnaround time at Newquay - makes at least three-and-three-quarter hours. Throw in running time from Laira depot to Plymouth station at the start of the day and that's near enough four.

In that time an AT300 will have done a run all the way from Plymouth to London - carrying a lot of passengers and earning lots of money - and be on its way back again - also carrying a lot of passengers, etc... Or done the best part of a round trip between Plymouth and Penzance, carrying far more people than will ever be going to Newquay, bar for a few weeks in the summer. And no one is going to do anything to rebuild the Cornish main line, so journeys west of Plymouth generally won't be getting faster any time soon.

The possible advantage of using 80x's to provide direct services to London is that it could free up the 14x or 15x unit to be used elsewhere whilst potentially attracting more people to use the service (assuming that all the services were run by 80x's), would it be more expensive, yes, would it make Newquay easier to get to, yes, would ticket prices cover the extra costs, not currently over the course of the year and you are right during the winter not by a long way - however, could the extra income from the 14x or 15x being more intensively used elsewhere cover the extra costs to justify doing it especially with all the extra potential custom that could be generated in the summer months (especially with the extra revenue from people coming all the way from London) and you may start to be getting in to the realms of it being justifiable. Additionally, it could be possible to alter the timetable so that the trains a different pattern rather there and back several times, which may attract more people to the line.

Sorry, but no one is going to waste 125mph, 320-seat express trains on a mineral tramway for hours on end every day, all year. If you want to free up a 153 or 150, a minibus or taxi would be a better and cheaper way to do it for most of the year.

If Newquay was this unexploited honeypot that you see to believe it to be, then someone at BR or First Group would also have noticed and done something about it long ago. First did introduce the summer weekday HST service from/to London in 2007 in July and August but has not extended its period of operation or added further services, which ought to be a bit of a clue about their view of the lack of unexploited potential.

However if changes were to happen (understandably at a cost) then the sorts of services I listed could attract people to use the railway who otherwise don't at present because of the poor timetabling the line.

The timetable is not the problem - the timetable is a result of all the other problems with the line, in particular that it links Newquay to a place no one wants to get to and the line speeds are cripplingly slow.

And unlike all the other - busier - Cornish branches it does not have another string to its bow than summer bucket and spade traffic, whether that is park-and-ride (St Ives and Looe) or local commuting etc (Falmouth and Gunnislake).
 
Last edited:

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,282
Fact - the buses are faster and the fastest buses cut 15 minutes off even the best you could hope for with a through train.

Never mind that most people doing the journey probably use cars anyway and do it in 30 minutes most of the year, wiping the floor with the bus, never mind your 80-minute through train.

However the faster buses only run once an hour with the slower buses in the gap between, as such depending on when people want to go some people COULD still think that a train is a fair competitor in terms of journey time. (i.e. if it leaves 5 minutes after the slow bus but gets in 5 minutes before the fast bus).

As I said some people are not keen on using buses for travel purposes because they are not as reliable as trains, as such often buses have to be a lot better than trains. As such there will be some for whom an extra 15 minutes isn't a problem.

Sorry, but no one is going to waste 125mph, 320-seat express trains on a mineral tramway for hours on end every day, all year. If you want to free up a 153 or 150, a minibus or taxi would be a better and cheaper way to do it for most of the year.

So we might as well close the line?!?

If Newquay was this unexploited honeypot that you see to believe it to be, then someone at BR or First Group would also have noticed and done something about it long ago. First did introduce the summer weekday HST service from/to London in 2007 in July and August but has not extended its period of operation or added further services, which ought to be a bit of a clue about their view of the lack of unexploited potential.

Just because no one has done anything else the last 10 years doesn't mean that nothing will happen in the next 10 years (or 20 years or longer - no where have I said that it would happen tomorrow, just it could be a way that an underused line could be used more - which is the point of this thread). There is also a slight difference between having enough justification to run a HST and running a 5 coach 80x which shares a path out of London with another 5 coach unit which runs down to Penzance.

By being able to split units I could see that GWR could run two trains in the summer Saturdays rather than one long train (as it would attract more people as it is more likely to be going at a time when people want to travel). With that happening it may well not take long for there to be justification for a third service on Summer Saturdays. Once that starts to happen there could then be calls and potentially justification for through a daily through service during the summer timetable.

Could it happen, probably, is it going to change quickly, almost certainly not. Did I say that it would change quickly (if it were to), no.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top