Steam Loco "driver side"

[eMeS]

I'm watching "The Last days of Steam" on BBC Four, and it was stated that one of the fireman's jobs was to "watch for the signals", because they were better seen on his side in the cab, and not seen as well on the side convenient to the driver. Seeing as railways, signals etc, were invented here and I assume that either side could have been chosen, I am amazed at such a statement. Was it correct, or is it a fable?

 

[Peter C]

I've not watched the programme in question (or if I have, not for a long time), and so I'm not sure of the specifics, but I do know that the GWR built their engines with the driver's position on the right-hand side of the cab, and the fireman's on the left. The signals were on the left-hand side of the track, though (apart from some exceptions I noticed when playing Train Sim the other day - but how realistic that is, I don't know). The GWR wasn't exactly known for following conventions - they did all sorts of things which were different to other companies during the steam era (and even into BR days in the form of the Western Region).
Would part of the firemen looking out to see signals have been part of their training for when they became a driver? My basic understanding is that workers on the railway began as cleaners, before moving up (through which steps, I'm not sure) to fireman, and then when they were too knackered to fire a loco they became a driver, so surely it would be beneficial for them to start learning the road as they went along? I'm sure someone else can confirm/deny.

-Peter

 

[Dave W]

I suspect that should be took to mean “look for some signals” which due to line curvature, visual obstruction, etc may be seen better from the fireman’s side, even if only temporarily. An example might be a signal beyond a bridge on a curve. By the time the signal comes into sight a driver may not be able to stop if it’s showing danger.

A driver might also have asked his fireman, presumably, to keep an extra pair of eyes out in fog or falling snow or in particularly busy areas.

There are many here present who are better versed in operations in this era than I, however.

 

[hexagon789]

but I do know that the GWR built their engines with the driver's position on the right-hand side of the cab

The first batch of LNER A1 Pacifics were built right-hand drive, including Flying Scotsman. While the new build A3s were left-hand from new.

While the first batch A1s were converted themselves to A3s, they were not converted to left-hand drive until the 1950s. Flying Scotsman herself was not converted until April 1954.

So it wasn't just the GWR!

 

[Taunton]

The GWR had right hand drive, and the signals were, where possible, sited to suit. There were plenty of GWR signals on the right hand side of the formation. One of the reasons BR Standard steam locos were disliked on the WR was their left hand drive did not suit signal positioning.

The LNER seems, in 1923, to have inherited about 50-50 of left/right hand drive constituents, and some batches of locos were subsequently built with some of each.

The whole left/right drive issue is driven by the fireman's convenience to fire with the shovel right-handed, as most people are, which means they need to stand on the left, and thus the driver on the right. You can understand that when presented with a loco of opposite orientation the fireman would find it awkward to fire "wrong way round".

 

[341o2]

The inquest into the Lewisham disaster, where 34066 Spitfire ran into the rear of the preceding train revealed that the signalling dated from 1929 and designed for right hand driven locomotives, 34066 "like all modern locomotives" was left hand drive

 

[oldman]

The RCTS LNER books (Vol. 1, page 59) say that 'generally speaking' the English constituents used right-hand drive whereas the Scottish ones were left-hand. Supposedly NB drivers were unhappy when they started getting LH locomotives and made representations. After 1925 all new-builds were right-hand (except a few B12s), but few locomotives were converted.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I suspect that should be took to mean “look for some signals” which due to line curvature, visual obstruction, etc may be seen better from the fireman’s side, even if only temporarily. An example might be a signal beyond a bridge on a curve. By the time the signal comes into sight a driver may not be able to stop if it’s showing danger.

A driver might also have asked his fireman, presumably, to keep an extra pair of eyes out in fog or falling snow or in particularly busy areas.

There are many here present who are better versed in operations in this era than I, however.

What you write here may indeed be correct - except "By the time the signal comes into sight a driver may not be able to stop if it’s showing danger," which surely cannot be correct.

Unless there is some emergency, when all signals have been thrown to stop - the driver will have passed a distant at 'on'. This means he must be prepared to stop at the next home, and must drive assuming he has to stop - so he must drive a suitable speed to stop, or he is at fault.

Of course, if the signal sighting distance is indeed limited, a word from the fireman that the home is 'off' would help him keep time, as the driver can then immediately accelerate to line speed.

 

[Peter C]

The first batch of LNER A1 Pacifics were built right-hand drive, including Flying Scotsman. While the new build A3s were left-hand from new.

While the first batch A1s were converted themselves to A3s, they were not converted to left-hand drive until the 1950s. Flying Scotsman herself was not converted until April 1954.

So it wasn't just the GWR!

I didn't know about the A1s - thanks! Nice to know the GWR weren't completely barmy in their ways...

-Peter

 

[ac6000cw]

Would part of the firemen looking out to see signals have been part of their training for when they became a driver?

Yes, basically. Firemen needed to 'know the road' to fire a loco properly/economically anyway, and knowing where signals were difficult to see from the drivers side was part of that.

My basic understanding is that workers on the railway began as cleaners, before moving up (through which steps, I'm not sure) to fireman, and then when they were too knackered to fire a loco they became a driver, so surely it would be beneficial for them to start learning the road as they went along?

Based on what I've read, career progression was normally: cleaner, 'passed' cleaner (i.e. qualified to fire), fireman, 'passed' fireman (i.e. qualified to drive), driver. Progressing from cleaner to driver usually took quite a few years, mostly learning 'on the job' from whoever you were working with, combined with rules learning and examinations.

The 'passed' cleaners & firemen formed a pool of people who could do firing & driving turns as and when required e.g. to cover extra trains, holidays, illness etc. but otherwise did their normal cleaning & firing jobs. Moving up to fireman or driver grade would mean waiting for a vacancy at their home depot to become available, or applying for a job at another depot.

 

[Peter C]

Yes, basically. Firemen needed to 'know the road' to fire a loco properly/economically anyway, and knowing where signals were difficult to see from the drivers side was part of that.

Ah cool. Makes sense - just like how a driver would need to know the road to know when to apply more power/brake.

Based on what I've read, career progression was normally: cleaner, 'passed' cleaner (i.e. qualified to fire), fireman, 'passed' fireman (i.e. qualified to drive), driver. Progressing from cleaner to driver usually took quite a few years, mostly learning 'on the job' from whoever you were working with, combined with rules learning and examinations.

That's my understanding of it too - I think it was this film from the LMS that I got it from:

(well worth a watch, if you've not seen it already)

The 'passed' cleaners & firemen formed a pool of people who could do firing & driving turns as and when required e.g. to cover extra trains, holidays, illness etc.

I didn't know that bit - thanks.

-Peter

 

[ac6000cw]

Ah cool. Makes sense - just like how a driver would need to know the road to know when to apply more power/brake.

As you're in 'GWR land', the book "Castles to Warships: On the Great Western Footplate" by Jack Gardner is a good read, and covers the career of someone who started as a cleaner on the (original) GWR in 1936 and progressed through to Traction Inspector/Instructor on BR Western Region, finishing in the HST era.

 

[Peter C]

As you're in 'GWR land', the book "Castles to Warships: On the Great Western Footplate" by Jack Gardner is a good read, and covers the career of someone who started as a cleaner on the (original) GWR in 1936 and progressed through to Traction Inspector/Instructor on BR Western Region, finishing in the HST era.

Sounds interesting - thanks for the link too. I'll definitely look into that one.

-Peter

 

[Taunton]

The Norton Fitzwarren 1941 accident was in part signal positioning. Not stated in the accident report, but at Taunton station the starting signals for the Relief line were on the left, whereas on the Main alongside they were on the right, both being mounted on the platform. The accident train was at the platform on the Relief, and the bracket signal was pulled off for it to cross as normal to the Down Main on departure. The driver would have seen this while waiting. Shortly before departure the signalbox changed plans on learning of the approach of a nonstop on the Down Main, so reversed the points and pulled off for straight ahead on the Down Relief. It was normal for the fireman on the GWR on left hand platforms to look back on their side for the green lamp, look forward to the signal, and confirm "Right Away" to the driver. Driver has previously seen the signal off, but now it's a different one.

So many changes official and local followed in the days after the accident. If a signal reversion was done at the station, no starter was to be cleared for a different route until the loco whistled for it. Trains on the Down Relief were to be checked at intermediate Silk Mill box if the route at Norton Fitzwarren was not clear, as Norton was to send "Section Clear Junction Blocked" back to Silk Mill in such circumstances. Silk Mill starters were fitted with detonator placers to be used if the train appeared not to have slackened speed. And Taunton crews, at least, always both looked out on the left when ready to start.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I've not watched the programme in question (or if I have, not for a long time), and so I'm not sure of the specifics, but I do know that the GWR built their engines with the driver's position on the right-hand side of the cab, and the fireman's on the left. The signals were on the left-hand side of the track, though (apart from some exceptions I noticed when playing Train Sim the other day - but how realistic that is, I don't know). The GWR wasn't exactly known for following conventions - they did all sorts of things which were different to other companies during the steam era (and even into BR days in the form of the Western Region).
Would part of the firemen looking out to see signals have been part of their training for when they became a driver? My basic understanding is that workers on the railway began as cleaners, before moving up (through which steps, I'm not sure) to fireman, and then when they were too knackered to fire a loco they became a driver, so surely it would be beneficial for them to start learning the road as they went along? I'm sure someone else can confirm/deny.

-Peter

When not otherwise engaged firemen would be expected to keep a look out.
Cleaner. Passed ( for fireman ) cleaner. Fireman. Passed ( for driving ) Fireman. Driver. Inspector.
Not Too knackerd". Waited for vancancies for a driver position before moving from passed fireman.
A friend's dad was a passed fireman who spent most of his working time driving because he had to wait for passed fireman senior to him to be offered driver jobs before he could be offered one, and he did not want to move any distance to take a driver job.

 

[Peter C]

When not otherwise engaged firemen would be expected to keep a look out.
Cleaner. Passed ( for fireman ) cleaner. Fireman. Passed ( for driving ) Fireman. Driver. Inspector.
Not Too knackerd". Waited for vancancies for a driver position before moving from passed fireman.
A friend's dad was a passed fireman who spent most of his working time driving because he had to wait for passed fireman senior to him to be offered driver jobs before he could be offered one, and he did not want to move any distance to take a driver job.

Thanks for the explanation - as I said, my understanding of this topic is relatively basic so it's really nice that people keep sharing info.

-Peter

 

[Loppylugs]

When I was firing at Reading (Western), my regular mate regularly encouraged me to observe signals, not only to help him but as an aid for learning the road. He also recommended I come over to his side when not firing for the same reasons. I don't think he liked me sitting on my seat! Firing left or right-handed was no problem on a tender engine but could be difficult on a tank loco.
Talking of seats, the western locos had wooden ones with a slight dip in them, not very comfy. However, the 92xxx came with very comfortable seats and could lead to a noddy pair of enginemen falling asleep in a loop with the firebox doors open. I know from experience !

 

[Calthrop]

Based on what I've read, career progression was normally: cleaner, 'passed' cleaner (i.e. qualified to fire), fireman, 'passed' fireman (i.e. qualified to drive), driver. Progressing from cleaner to driver usually took quite a few years, mostly learning 'on the job' from whoever you were working with, combined with rules learning and examinations.

The 'passed' cleaners & firemen formed a pool of people who could do firing & driving turns as and when required e.g. to cover extra trains, holidays, illness etc. but otherwise did their normal cleaning & firing jobs. Moving up to fireman or driver grade would mean waiting for a vacancy at their home depot to become available, or applying for a job at another depot.

When not otherwise engaged firemen would be expected to keep a look out.
Cleaner. Passed ( for fireman ) cleaner. Fireman. Passed ( for driving ) Fireman. Driver. Inspector.
Not Too knackerd". Waited for vancancies for a driver position before moving from passed fireman.
A friend's dad was a passed fireman who spent most of his working time driving because he had to wait for passed fireman senior to him to be offered driver jobs before he could be offered one, and he did not want to move any distance to take a driver job.

I recall from the radio "musical" The Ballad of John Axon, a song about the arduous and often slow progression which was part and parcel of the job of steam locoman; including a line at least partly lamenting re same, in the approximate words, "eight years... twelve years... fifteen years a cleaner". One would hope, or wish, that those would have been extreme circumstances; and that most guys attained one or another "fireman" grade in a good deal less than fifteen years !

 

[Harvester]

I recall from the radio "musical" The Ballad of John Axon, a song about the arduous and often slow progression which was part and parcel of the job of steam locoman; including a line at least partly lamenting re same, in the approximate words, "eight years... twelve years... fifteen years a cleaner". One would hope, or wish, that those would have been extreme circumstances; and that most guys attained one or another "fireman" grade in a good deal less than fifteen years !

It all changed at some sheds towards the end of steam. I remember reading that a lot of the mainline drivers at Nine Elms were in their early thirties, with firemen in their early twenties when steam was having its final fling on the Southern (1966/1967).

 

[hexagon789]

It all changed at some sheds towards the end of steam. I remember reading that a lot of the mainline drivers at Nine Elms were in their early thirties, with firemen in their early twenties when steam was having its final fling on the Southern (1966/1967).

I read a book by one such driver, but I'm blessed if I can remember the chap's name. Interesting read too.

I seem to recall though he didn't just fire runs on the SR, I seem to remember he fired turns on Castles into Devon and an ex-LNER Pacific on the up Flying Scotsman once as well.

I think the book was published about 2009? Someone might know it.

 

[Gloster]

At larger depots a passed cleaner would probably be limited to shunting, pilot and local trip work for a number of years; they would also be more likely to get the unpopular turns. Only when they had worked their way up the seniority lists would they start to learn the road for longer distance workings and get a few more interesting turns. The same situation would repeat itself once they had got a post as fireman, although possibly not to such an extent.

There were, of course, exceptions. For example, some primarily freight depots might be drawn on to work summer holiday trains to destinations far from their normal stamping grounds. If these turns were regarded as unpopular ones then they might be worked by the passed crews.

 

[Harvester]

I read a book by one such driver, but I'm blessed if I can remember the chap's name. Interesting read too.

I seem to recall though he didn't just fire runs on the SR, I seem to remember he fired turns on Castles into Devon and an ex-LNER Pacific on the up Flying Scotsman once as well.

I think the book was published about 2009? Someone might know it.

I have a book “Man of the Southern” by Jim Evans. He was a Nine Elms driver 1965-67 and was recorded driving at speeds in the nineties on many occasions on Bulleid Pacifics, but he only drove on the Southern. He also drove the last steam engine out of Waterloo on Sunday 9th July 1967, when he took 35030 Elder Dempster Lines light engine to Nine Elms, after it had arrived unexpectedly on the 14.07 from Weymouth.

 

[hexagon789]

I have a book “Man of the Southern” by Jim Evans. He was a Nine Elms driver 1965-67 and was recorded driving at speeds in the nineties on many occasions on Bulleid Pacifics, but he only drove on the Southern. He also drove the last steam engine out of Waterloo on Sunday 9th July 1967, when he took 35030 Elder Dempster Lines light engine to Nine Elms, after it had arrived unexpectedly on the 14.07 from Weymouth.

Sounds like an interesting read but not him unfortunately. Though I do want to search out "Man of the Southern" now!

 

[Taunton]

At larger depots a passed cleaner would probably be limited to shunting, pilot and local trip work for a number of years; they would also be more likely to get the unpopular turns. Only when they had worked their way up the seniority lists would they start to learn the road for longer distance workings and get a few more interesting turns. The same situation would repeat itself once they had got a post as fireman, although possibly not to such an extent.

David L Smith in his wonderful stories of the Glasgow & South Western railway around 100 years ago describes how the evening arrival from London at Kilmarnock if very late would miss the last connection to Ayr and on if need be to Stranraer, so a special would be hurridly arranged, large loco with two coaches, crewed by a Passed Fireman and a Passed Cleaner grabbed from the shed. Wheeee! Main line run at last! They were beating all known times until one pair overdid it, the guards journal was examined, and they were stood down for a week as a "punishment".

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The Norton Fitzwarren 1941 accident was in part signal positioning. Not stated in the accident report, but at Taunton station the starting signals for the Relief line were on the left, whereas on the Main alongside they were on the right, both being mounted on the platform. The accident train was at the platform on the Relief, and the bracket signal was pulled off for it to cross as normal to the Down Main on departure. The driver would have seen this while waiting. Shortly before departure the signalbox changed plans on learning of the approach of a nonstop on the Down Main, so reversed the points and pulled off for straight ahead on the Down Relief. It was normal for the fireman on the GWR on left hand platforms to look back on their side for the green lamp, look forward to the signal, and confirm "Right Away" to the driver. Driver has previously seen the signal off, but now it's a different one.

So many changes official and local followed in the days after the accident. If a signal reversion was done at the station, no starter was to be cleared for a different route until the loco whistled for it. Trains on the Down Relief were to be checked at intermediate Silk Mill box if the route at Norton Fitzwarren was not clear, as Norton was to send "Section Clear Junction Blocked" back to Silk Mill in such circumstances. Silk Mill starters were fitted with detonator placers to be used if the train appeared not to have slackened speed. And Taunton crews, at least, always both looked out on the left when ready to start.

Of course , in much more recent times , a driver would have to be verbally advised if a previous cleared signal at a station or yard outlet , was returned to danger having been cleared.

Whatever happened at Taunton that dark evening will never (I suspect) , be properly explained , but I guess that the route was changed from down fast to down relief , without Driver Stacey being informed.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Of course , in much more recent times , a driver would have to be verbally advised if a previous cleared signal at a station or yard outlet , was returned to danger having been cleared.

Whatever happened at Taunton that dark evening will never (I suspect) , be properly explained , but I guess that the route was changed from down fast to down relief , without Driver Stacey being informed.

I’ve read that sort of comment before, but can’t quite understand why the Inspector wouldn’t have called that out in his report? Even if it was just conflicting claims that couldn’t be reconciled?

Most HMRI reports are pretty clear about what was claimed to have happened and didn’t spare anyone’s blushes so why not on this case if there was any suggestion the route was changed?

 

[Deepgreen]

Essentially, to be taken with a pinch of salt, and it's depressing how many things stated in what should be specialised programmes are far too generalised or poorly-researched. In general (and all this excludes the GWR), the driver of a modern UK steam loco sat on the left, and the fireman would either be firing or observing from the right hand side. The signals would normally be sited to the left of the line such that the driver would see them and much care was taken with gantries, etc., to ensure that the relevant signals were as visible as possible. On right-hand curves, clearly the signals would not be visible until quite late on the approach which is when the fireman's observations were particularly important. Clearly, any system of driving a vehicle where the visibility of the route ahead is so compromised is very unsatisfactory and I often marvel at the relatively low number of accidents that resulted. The long times for progressing through the ranks probably contributed to the safety that was achieved to a large degree.

 

[WesternLancer]

When I was firing at Reading (Western), my regular mate regularly encouraged me to observe signals, not only to help him but as an aid for learning the road. He also recommended I come over to his side when not firing for the same reasons. I don't think he liked me sitting on my seat! Firing left or right-handed was no problem on a tender engine but could be difficult on a tank loco.
Talking of seats, the western locos had wooden ones with a slight dip in them, not very comfy. However, the 92xxx came with very comfortable seats and could lead to a noddy pair of enginemen falling asleep in a loop with the firebox doors open. I know from experience !

I enjoyed reading those recollections there!

 

[matchmaker]

David L Smith in his wonderful stories of the Glasgow & South Western railway around 100 years ago describes how the evening arrival from London at Kilmarnock if very late would miss the last connection to Ayr and on if need be to Stranraer, so a special would be hurridly arranged, large loco with two coaches, crewed by a Passed Fireman and a Passed Cleaner grabbed from the shed. Wheeee! Main line run at last! They were beating all known times until one pair overdid it, the guards journal was examined, and they were stood down for a week as a "punishment".

OT I know, but his books are absolute classics and well worth tracking down!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I’ve read that sort of comment before, but can’t quite understand why the Inspector wouldn’t have called that out in his report? Even if it was just conflicting claims that couldn’t be reconciled?

Most HMRI reports are pretty clear about what was claimed to have happened and didn’t spare anyone’s blushes so why not on this case if there was any suggestion the route was changed?

I agree - but on this occasion there would presumably nothing in the relevant Train registers , (1940's Britain did not have data loggers !) , and the station staff around at that ghastly time of night would have been very few. Regrettably we shall never really know what happened.

Plus of course a disaster to a prime overnight train heading for Plymouth with a high % of military and naval staff was not good news.