Steam Locos and Turntables/ Wyes

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markindurham

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Does Southport still have a triangle?
It used to but I thought the link had been severed.
Looking at Gurgle Earth, it looks as though there are a couple of places where it's been severed. The formation is still there, but who would pay for its restoration?
 
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deltic08

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I don't think anybody has mentioned triangles at Halifax, Huddersfield, Wakefieid Kirkgate, Todmorden, Shipley, Leeds, numerous triangles in Manchester, triangle at Manchester Airport and very protracted one at Preston via Bamber Bridge.
 

plugwash

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Does Southport still have a triangle?
It used to but I thought the link had been severed.
Looking on google sattelite view it looks to me like the direct link between the liverpool and wigan lines has been severed, but there still appears to be a triangle on the liverpool side.
 

5562

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Steam charters to Buxton that require reversal see the locos use the triangle at Chinley (I think in South, East and North junctions order).
 

2392

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The triangle at the south end of the KE Bridge can also be used, of course

Indeed Mark, I knew of the KE triangle as well as the High Level triangle. Though I left it out for logistical reasons, it being to some degree IMO easier to just work the whole train through to Heaton Carriage sidings. Have the stock serviced if needs be, whilst the loco was uncoupled and ran onto the turntable there.
 
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Romsey

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Cannon Street - Waterloo East - London Bridge - Cannon Street would be less than 3 miles crossovers permitting. Blackfriars and Charing Cross could use the same triangle.


The track is there, but the signalling isn't without going to into Charing Cross or Cannon St to reverse. Then there are the axle weight restrictions between Waterloo East and Hungerford Bridge ( RA4 ) which effectively precludes loco hauled workings. Any loco hauled engineering trains in that area are top and tailed for ease of working. I'm not certain what is being done about NMT workings as it's 5 years since I had any involvement.
 

Romsey

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In the west country, there are a number of options for turning a steam loco:

Bristol - A number of maneuvres available around the Temple Meads area via the triangular junction (wye) to the east of the station or St Philips Marsh depot 'balloon loop'. Triangular junctions galore exist around Parkway/Filton.
Westbury - The triangular junction at the east end of the station.
Salisbury - The triangular form junction to the east of the city known as the 'Laverstock Loop'
Yeovil - Railway Centre turntable.
Taunton - West Somerset Railway triangle (wye) at Norton Fitzwarren or turntable at Minehead.
Paignton - Dartmouth Steam Railway turntable at Churston.
Plymouth - The triangle at Laira depot.
Cornwall - The turntable at St Blazey depot, near Par.

There are also a number of itineraries that allow a turn en-route such as London to Exeter out via the GWR route and returning via the LSWR or vice versa. Similar possibilities around Bristol and Laverstock loop. The Bath, Chippenham, Trowbridge sub-network also forms a large triangle that could plausibly be used as a turning triangle for a loco or leg(s) thereof used as part of a circular itinerary for a complete train. Arriving from the Bristol direction, an excursion can also circumnavigate the Southampton area via the main station and return to Bristol, turning en route via Eastleigh - Romsey. Moving eastward along the south coast, there are more turning options but that's getting outside my stated 'west country' frame of reference.

Norton Fitzwarren, Churston and Yeovil Jn are on private railway infrastructure and need separate access agreements in addition to NWR. Also St Philips Marsh it technically a double ended private siding, so needs agreement from GWR.
I think to use Hawkeridge Curve as part of the triangle requires going onto the single line at Bradford Jn to reverse.
 

swt_passenger

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The triangle between Bedhampton, Hilsea and Cosham is there for steam trips into Portsmouth.
I saw this “triangle” used a few years ago, but I thought in practice they actually have to run all the way to Havant and Fareham, rather than just to Cosham; presumably due to a lack of crossovers?
 

Romsey

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I saw this “triangle” used a few years ago, but I thought in practice they actually have to run all the way to Havant and Fareham, rather than just to Cosham; presumably due to a lack of crossovers?

Correct, the emergency trailing crossover at Cosham was removed about 20 years ago.
 

MarkyT

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Norton Fitzwarren, Churston and Yeovil Jn are on private railway infrastructure and need separate access agreements in addition to NWR. Also St Philips Marsh it technically a double ended private siding, so needs agreement from GWR.
In most cases the excursions are going to the Kingswear or Minehead as a final destination when the first two are used, although a small number of mainline only excursions have used the WSR as a servicing/turning facility, changing engines at Taunton for example. Don't know much about Yeovil to be honest but it could be a useful location to turn and service a locomotive on a Weymouth excursion. Clearly an agreement with appropriate remuneration for the facility operator is required in all these cases.
 

CW2

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If memory serves correctly, there is one platform (only) at Inverness which has access to either side of the station, so it is possible to turn a loco that way.

Back in the days of the West Coast Travelling Post Office, the stock got turned every morning with top and tail class 25s thus: Wembley CS - Willesden West London Jn. - Mitre Bridge Jn (reverse) - Willesden Junction High Level (reverse) - Willesden City Goods Lines. Obviously it could achieve the same thing in reverse. Very rarely it did a "ballon loop" move via Acton Canal Wharf - Kew East Jn - Kensigton Olympia - Willesden.
(The stock had to be turned because the TPOs only had doors on one side of the train).
 

4141

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There's also a triangle at Gloucester....and come to think of it, Worcester as well...
 

markindurham

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Indeed Mark, I knew of the KE triangle as well as the High Level triangle. Though I left it out for logistical reasons, it being to some degree IMO easier to just work the whole train through to Heaton Carriage sidings. Have the stock serviced if needs be, whilst the loco was uncoupled and ran onto the turntable there.
Yes indeed - and operational issues can make pathing at the KE triangle problematic, but occasionally trying to get through to Heaton can be <interesting> too. It's such a shame that the High Level Bridge is closed to steam these days. Now that turning of HST power cars at Heaton has stopped, which was, as I understand it, its raison d'etre for the last few decades, let's hope that it remains available for use.
 

mailbyrail

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The triangle at Shireoaks East/West Junction and Woodend is still in place to the West of Worksop. Only single track on one side these days and probably of no practical use these days.
It used to be used for turning engineering plant wagons amongst other things when Worksop yard formed them into trains back in the last century (not that long ago!)
 

D6975

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Anyone mentioned Cardiff yet? Two options, the triangle south of the depot and a quick jaunt up to Radyr and back.
 

Dunfanaghy Rd

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Turning Units and Light Engines is one thing - steam engines in this country have to run with a support coach, seemingly permanently. So, using a triangle would have to include run-round facilities at each apex. If Network rail took a leaf out of the DB book it would be much easier.
Pat
 

30907

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Turning Units and Light Engines is one thing - steam engines in this country have to run with a support coach, seemingly permanently. So, using a triangle would have to include run-round facilities at each apex. If Network rail took a leaf out of the DB book it would be much easier.
Pat
Are they not permitted to propel - or do they leave the support coach behind briefly? Certainly the Shipley triangle has been used, and that at Carlisle is routinely used when there are no run-round facilities except at the station.
 

Bedpan

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The track is there, but the signalling isn't without going to into Charing Cross or Cannon St to reverse. Then there are the axle weight restrictions between Waterloo East and Hungerford Bridge ( RA4 ) which effectively precludes loco hauled workings. Any loco hauled engineering trains in that area are top and tailed for ease of working. I'm not certain what is being done about NMT workings as it's 5 years since I had any involvement.
I must admit that I had no idea that there was a weight restriction north of Waterloo East. I know that a Class 37 (I think) hauled "Buffer Puffer railtour visited Charing Cross several years ago but I suppose that was then, and now is now. Also,I take it that loco weight doesn't necessarily correspond to axle weight (a Class 43 on the NMT being only a couple of tons or so less than a Black 5.
 

800002

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Turning Units and Light Engines is one thing - steam engines in this country have to run with a support coach, seemingly permanently. So, using a triangle would have to include run-round facilities at each apex. If Network rail took a leaf out of the DB book it would be much easier.
Pat
Are they not permitted to propel - or do they leave the support coach behind briefly? Certainly the Shipley triangle has been used, and that at Carlisle is routinely used when there are no run-round facilities except at the station.
It depends on the local operating rules that have been established.
Some places, Chester for example, you can reverse (propel) a whole train (engine with tender, support coach, empty stock) providing front and back are in contact via radio.

IIRC you are permitted to propel past one mainline signal, provided there is a signalled route for it, and there is a signaled route forward once propelling has ceased.
That enables your kettle with support coach to turn as a whole instead of running around and then running tender first.
 

High Dyke

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Now long gone, but Grantham steam shed had five different turntables over the years, mainly as a result of larger locomotives being built. In the end a convoluted triangle was built - imagine a pair of scissors - that incorporated a flat crossing to turn loco's.

Further info here.
 

IanXC

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A few triangles that come to mind:

Carlisle
Doncaster
Hull
Selby
Thornaby
 

Dunfanaghy Rd

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It depends on the local operating rules that have been established.
Some places, Chester for example, you can reverse (propel) a whole train (engine with tender, support coach, empty stock) providing front and back are in contact via radio.

IIRC you are permitted to propel past one mainline signal, provided there is a signalled route for it, and there is a signaled route forward once propelling has ceased.
That enables your kettle with support coach to turn as a whole instead of running around and then running tender first.
A far cry from Germany. At the Dresden Dampfloktreffen ECS is propelled from the yards to the Hbf by its steam loco. The man with a radio standing in the leading coach is, I presume, a qualified driver calling out signal aspects.
Pat
 

Dunfanaghy Rd

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Now long gone, but Grantham steam shed had five different turntables over the years, mainly as a result of larger locomotives being built. In the end a convoluted triangle was built - imagine a pair of scissors - that incorporated a flat crossing to turn loco's.

Further info here.
That is really neat!
Pat
 

30907

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A far cry from Germany. At the Dresden Dampfloktreffen ECS is propelled from the yards to the Hbf by its steam loco. The man with a radio standing in the leading coach is, I presume, a qualified driver calling out signal aspects.
Pat
Propelling ECS is normal practice in various countries.
 

K.o.R

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You could always make your own set of driving controls, like the Great Central here...
 

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800002

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A far cry from Germany. At the Dresden Dampfloktreffen ECS is propelled from the yards to the Hbf by its steam loco. The man with a radio standing in the leading coach is, I presume, a qualified driver calling out signal aspects.
Pat
That certainly is a difference!
Just wondering though, do you know how far it is, propelling from the yard to the Hbf? And how many signal sections / signals are passed?
 
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